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E85, IS It Plant Juice Power, Or Fuel System Eating Acid From Hell


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#41 paradime

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 02:59 PM

Are you saying that if you burned the 50 lb of corn you could heat a home for two months???? Do you realize just how impossibly XXXXXXXX this statement sounds???? One pound of corn contains less than 8,500 BTUs of energy. 50 pounds = 450,000 BTUs. Home heating oil is 138,000 BTUs. So a bag of corn = 3.26 gallons and I'm guessing that this wouldn't last more than a few days.


 


While water will absorb heat when vaporizing it is NOT near what does the job when alcohol evaporates.  Water needs 2.7 times the energy to evaporate than alcohol. If you have 27% water and 73% ethanol they would both absorb an equal amount of heat in order to evaporate. I doubt the 85% alcohol in E85 is 27% water. So far and away the alcohol and the 15% gasoline do all the heat absorption.

 

 

I didn't say average size home in the antarctic circle. I'm talking from direct experience staying in a friend's single room 350 sq ft "small house" in Pescadero for the past 20 years. The bed is in a loft up in the rafters so it takes very little to heat. My wife and I stay there in the winter (high 30s at night) and we use less than a 2 lb. 1/4 gallon scoop of corn per night. It's a tiny stove with gravity feed hopper and literally looks like R2D2. It's on a thermostat that turns it on and off as needed and uses even less when burning wood pellets.

 

You and I both made mistakes in our figures though. I used 17.5 gal per bushel vs. your 3.26 gal. I got the correct reference from Oxford dictionary. A bushel of shelled corn per bag weighs 56 Pounds and in dry volume there are 9.4 gallons per bushel. So in reality it would be closer to 4 X 9.4 = 37.6 days or a month and a 1/4.

 

Mike as always I respect your eye for detail, and that is a contribution to this thread, but did you even read the article I posted? I thought it was pretty damn impressive, informative, and well supported. The quote I used from the article didn't say water is why ethanol runs cooler. It states "it is in part the water content in the E85"

 

The point I wanted to make was regarding water aiding cooling rather than the myth that ethanol suffers from "water contamination", but I think you know that. I agree what I said in the second sentence of the second paragraph was less than perfectly accurate, but it was clearly stated in the quote I pasted. In paraphrasing it, I should have stated "It is the natural water content in ethanol that helps give it it's vaporization cooling properties." If there is 5% water, the added help would change ethanol's latent heat of vaporization to 1025kJ/kg, close to 3X that of gas. As per the thread subject, for performance minded applications that is a very significant difference.

 

 

For those interested in this thread topic, please forgive the inaccuracies, but I hope you get the general idea.


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#42 G-Duax

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 03:27 PM

So you were talking a glorified dog house........

No problem with the mis-information, just like the water content thing....

When I run strait methanol in something, the more water it absorbs from the air, the less power the engine makes.

When a barrel has been opened a few too many times, it is dumped.

(works great for killing fire ant hills)

 

I try to buy only enough to get through race day.


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"All of a sudden it started making noise, then started losing power. I limped the car home and tried to get it up the driveway, the engine just died."

 

Why do people do this?

A $100 tow bill is never as much as the extra damage you cause by trying to "limp the car home".

 

Don't be that person !


#43 datzenmike

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 04:02 PM

Are you saying that if you burned the 50 lb of corn you could heat a home for two months???? Do you realize just how impossibly XXXXXXXX this statement sounds???? One pound of corn contains less than 8,500 BTUs of energy. 50 pounds = 450,000 BTUs. Home heating oil is 138,000 BTUs. So a bag of corn = 3.26 gallons and I'm guessing that this wouldn't last more than a few days.

 

I was going on total BTUs. One pound corn = 8,000- 8,500 BTUs so 56 lb is 476,000 BTUs

 

Home heating oil is 139,000 a gallon so 56 lb of corn is equal to just under 3.5 gallons of heating oil. 

 

Lets say for the argument that all the heat is available from the corn and the oil furnace is only 50% efficient. Now it's 7 gallons of oil to 56 pounds. Call me crazy but I don't think 8 gallons of home heating oil will keep a doghouse warm for two months nor does it make sense that 56 pounds of corn will. Well unless only running for 4 hours a night.

 

2 pounds per night would only last 28 days.


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#44 paradime

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 04:54 PM

First off guys, this is a very cute and cozy glorified dog house we're talking about here.  :lol:

 

Well done Mike, you trolled me into arguing about how much F'n corn it takes to heat my buddy's little house. Bravo, so can we get back to the thread topic now, or do you want to dick around some more?


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#45 paradime

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 05:15 PM

So you were talking a glorified dog house........

No problem with the mis-information, just like the water content thing....

When I run strait methanol in something, the more water it absorbs from the air, the less power the engine makes.

When a barrel has been opened a few too many times, it is dumped.

(works great for killing fire ant hills)

 

I try to buy only enough to get through race day.

 

Is methanol effected by water content the same way ethanol is? I have a tank of ethanol that's been in my car for months. I add Sta-Bil, have a silica filter on the fuel cell air vent, and I live in a dry climate, so hopefully it's good. I start and idle it for a while every week and it always fires up like it's eager to run.


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The blocked list is getting bigger-but you were the first.

 

 

 

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#46 datzenmike

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 05:37 PM

when-im-washing-my-hands-next-to-some-du

 

Well it just didn't sit right somehow.  Yes on with the show until next time.


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#47 paradime

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 07:21 PM

Thanks Mike, and I'll be careful not use hyperbolic analogies that don't sit well. 


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#48 paradime

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 01:54 PM

I've been asked many times about what advance Bryan used for tuning my car for e85, but instead of giving the quick but safe answer of "use a dyno", I'll try to elaborate. 

 

As a kid I've seised my share of 2stroke engines and learned that lesson the hard way... more than once actually, so I think it should be noted: Topping the list of most dangerous things when tuning for any fuel is running too lean, and e85 is no exception. Monitoring 02 through the exhaust is how you safely optimize the air fuel mixture from idle to redline. If your static tune was done using 85% ethanol and the ratio drops to 60% in the winter, your mixture is way off in seise country. An ethanol sensor is worth the investment.

 

Detonation/knock is the next danger. The octane rating of E85 is between 105-107, but when combined with its cooling properties when converting from vapor to gas, it's actual knock resistance is much higher than the octane rating suggests. The aim of optimizing the ignition timing is finding max torque, not max HP. Often when tuning mild boost engines on pump gas, you'd reach it's knock threshold long before you'd reach max torque. This is where e85 can offer more power than race gas, because it's relatively immune to knock. In fact it's possible to over advance the timing and actually make LESS power before you hear any detonation. Without a very sensitive knock sensor I wouldn't bank on detonation as a nonissue though. Advancing until you hear knock the backing off a bit is not getting you the most power posable. This is why I suggest a power load dyno is best for safely optimizing a tune. 

 

Finally, unless the engine is in absolute stock trim, with the stock cold air intake and stock exhaust, there is no quick and easy e85 timing map. Optimum timing is effected by ethanol gas ratio, amount of boost/relative compression ratio, heat, the power and duration of ignition spark, flow or restriction in cam lift, duration, and timing, the size and flow/restriction of the exhaust manifold, turbine, pipe diameter and bends, etc. 

 

Interesting to note: besides the amount of boost and spool times, here's another trade off between a small vs big turbos. Smaller turbos run hotter and are more prone to heatsink. Again, e85 is a perfect solution.


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#49 paradime

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 02:31 PM


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#50 nl320what

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 02:44 PM

I got into an argument on FB of all places about when Venezuela is causing the oil barrel prices to rise, and we will see gas prices above $5 in Cali..... I said the alternative available is the E85 or EV if you dont want to rely on OPEC and barrels of oil to consume in your vehicle.

 

E85 is pure Ethanol (200-proof) but they have to add 15% or more gas to escape the additional fees imposed on Liquor and to stop human consumption, lol.

 

When gas/diesel hit $10/gal what fuel will you use in your vehicle? I gotta get to work in a timely manner, take a bike....  but when gas/diesel prices go up, so does the secondary market transportation and food prices too.

 

Makes sense to fund an alternate fuel that does not rely on barrels of crude black stuff.


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#51 paradime

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 09:59 AM

If necessity is the mother of invention, than the oil industry is it's fratricidal child. Throughout history many superior technologies have been suppressed in the protection of power and profit. For every honest article I've found about e85 I've found 5 pieces of disinformation, and even outright lies about ethanol. 

 

In all reality, there isn't enough water or area on this planet to grow the amount of sucrose into ethanol needed to meet humanity's current power needs. To really make a dent reducing our consumption of fossil fuels it would take massive re design of our infrastructure and multiple forms of alternative energy. Not to mention the amount of political capital it would take to overturn Big Oil's money cart. 


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#52 nl320what

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 10:25 AM

If necessity is the mother of invention, than the oil industry is it's fratricidal child. Throughout history many superior technologies have been suppressed in the protection of power and profit. For every honest article I've found about e85 I've found 5 pieces of disinformation, and even outright lies about ethanol. 

 

In all reality, there isn't enough water or area on this planet to grow the amount of sucrose into ethanol needed to meet humanity's current power needs. To really make a dent reducing our consumption of fossil fuels it would take massive re design of our infrastructure and multiple forms of alternative energy. Not to mention the amount of political capital it would take to overturn Big Oil's money cart. 

 

The future I guess will entail us virtually working our job and shop/grow from home, so we can eliminate the Load on oil demand.

 

Then we can just need to get fuel for personal use like vacationing, and other things.

 

Not mentioning Commercial fueling as who knows how that will need restructuring.

 

But on a 10acre plot, we should be able to make it self sufficient food wise and produce your own fuel for trips over a period of time.

 

I'm thinking at some point we will need to digress just to sustain ourselves without dependance.

 

If there is ever an upheaval that disrupts society and Govt, I see survivalist being: Homeless, ghettos, and Amish :P


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#53 G-Duax

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:51 PM

Do you have any idea how much fuel it takes to produce crops on 10 acres ?

Not even sure you could raise enough corn to turn into fuel to run the tractor to plow, disk, drag, plant, then harvest the corn.

 

Maybe a half dozen wind turbines to run an electric tractor.

Wow, wouldn't it be fun to live under all them.

 

Bottom line, small farms don't hardly cut it any longer.

The 1920s are gone (my grand father had 80 acres, and it barely paid the bills, paid for new (used) equipment, etc., etc.).

And that required long hard hours, every day....

 

Only thing that is going to save us if you stop letting the rest of the world (who for the most part, have no idea what birth control is) into this country, and sterilize the ones who are already here.

I see people families that have lots of kids, and one, maybe two people earning money, and they just keep popping the litters out.

And all these people are the ones who vote for people who promise a chicken in every pot, and free cell phones, etc..


"All of a sudden it started making noise, then started losing power. I limped the car home and tried to get it up the driveway, the engine just died."

 

Why do people do this?

A $100 tow bill is never as much as the extra damage you cause by trying to "limp the car home".

 

Don't be that person !


#54 paradime

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 06:22 PM

Do you have any idea how much fuel it takes to produce crops on 10 acres ?

Not even sure you could raise enough corn to turn into fuel to run the tractor to plow, disk, drag, plant, then harvest the corn.

 

Maybe a half dozen wind turbines to run an electric tractor.

Wow, wouldn't it be fun to live under all them.

 

Bottom line, small farms don't hardly cut it any longer.

The 1920s are gone (my grand father had 80 acres, and it barely paid the bills, paid for new (used) equipment, etc., etc.).

And that required long hard hours, every day....

 

Only thing that is going to save us if you stop letting the rest of the world (who for the most part, have no idea what birth control is) into this country, and sterilize the ones who are already here.

I see people families that have lots of kids, and one, maybe two people earning money, and they just keep popping the litters out.

And all these people are the ones who vote for people who promise a chicken in every pot, and free cell phones, etc..

 

 

Bottom line, production cost for ethanol 7 years ago was $1.71 per gallon, today it's $1.22 and declining. The average cost to drill ship and refine a gallon of gas is $0.98 a gallon and rising. 

 

G-Duax, I fucked up and let the conversation veer into the politics of energy, my bad. That doesn't mean you can take the ball and run with it into your views on immigration and population control. This thread isn't Cuz 2.0, the topic is ethanol fuel G, so stick to that. 


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#55 G-Duax

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 07:12 AM

If necessity is the mother of invention, than the oil industry is it's fratricidal child. Throughout history many superior technologies have been suppressed in the protection of power and profit. For every honest article I've found about e85 I've found 5 pieces of disinformation, and even outright lies about ethanol. 

 

In all reality, there isn't enough water or area on this planet to grow the amount of sucrose into ethanol needed to meet humanity's current power needs. To really make a dent reducing our consumption of fossil fuels it would take massive re design of our infrastructure and multiple forms of alternative energy. Not to mention the amount of political capital it would take to overturn Big Oil's money cart. 

 

Agreed, let's just not mention anything remotely political.


"All of a sudden it started making noise, then started losing power. I limped the car home and tried to get it up the driveway, the engine just died."

 

Why do people do this?

A $100 tow bill is never as much as the extra damage you cause by trying to "limp the car home".

 

Don't be that person !


#56 nl320what

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 07:40 AM

Moon-shine, clear, grain alcohol (Ethanol) has been made way before powered equipment was around.

 

Anything that can be a sugar/dextrose: Corn is just common, mainly because its feed stock and for Corn Syrup for beverage companies.

 

Switchgrass Uses section near bottom is very informative for BioFuel= https://en.wikipedia...anicum_virgatum

 

Digress as in not using natural resources unless you are providing them yourself, using wind/water regenerative power on the farm, and doing alot of the till work with animal power.

 

Make your own Ethanol for trips during the week, i dont see why you couldnt design and live a self-sustaining life and make money.


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#57 G-Duax

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 10:47 AM

Let us know how that works out.

When do you plan on starting a batch?


"All of a sudden it started making noise, then started losing power. I limped the car home and tried to get it up the driveway, the engine just died."

 

Why do people do this?

A $100 tow bill is never as much as the extra damage you cause by trying to "limp the car home".

 

Don't be that person !


#58 paradime

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 11:54 AM

Let us know how that works out.
When do you plan on starting a batch?


We got it GDuax, you disagree with nl320what, so you can save the snarky shit and communicate like a big boy now. I copped to my mistake in letting the conversation veer into the politics of energy. With all due respect, AGAIN I'm asking both you and nl320what to stick to the OP of this thread.
 

In the interest of our new Ratsun 2.0 nonpolitical act, I'll define the conversation before it starts: This is not a tree hugging anti fossil fuel rant, this is about the search for performance. I've run into so many people who think that because ethanol is an eco-friendly renewable fuel it's somehow subversive. These same haters were saying the same thing about Datsuns a few years back. Personally if it makes my car go faster I couldn't give a flying fuck where it comes from or who it threatens.


This thread isn't about the viability of ethanol for the broader market's use, rather as an alternative race fuel.

IF you have experience running it, tuning for it, building the right fuelsystem for it, etc, please contribute.
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#59 loungin112

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 05:06 PM

I plan on doing a KA24DE-T build at some point.  Here in the rockies, our pump gas only goes up to 91.  So, E85 presents itself as a valid option for a turbo build.  Any thoughts on how E85 plays with high altitude?  Also, how does E85 work with Cunifer lines?  Would this material standup to the corrosiveness of E85?

 

Thanks



#60 paradime

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 06:47 PM

I plan on doing a KA24DE-T build at some point.  Here in the rockies, our pump gas only goes up to 91.  So, E85 presents itself as a valid option for a turbo build.  Any thoughts on how E85 plays with high altitude?  Also, how does E85 work with Cunifer lines?  Would this material standup to the corrosiveness of E85?
 
Thanks

 
You can get e85 up in the Rockies? :thumbup:  As long as you have the car tuned properly, ethanol is the same as gas. You always want more oxygen, but your MAF, and ECU will adjust for what ever. 
 
If you're talking nickel copper alloy from Fedhill it will resist corrosion. Although it will stand up to the task I've had more than one reliable source tell me it shouldn't be used for high pressure fuel, because it's easily crushed. That being said, it seems to do just fine for break lines, so... Steal braided line are safer but pricy. There are cheeper options like this 5-layer ethanol resistant 3/8" rubber fuel hose, but that's still $3.20 a ft. https://quadrajetpar...foot-p-374.html

 

Best of luck on that Turbo KA. 


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The blocked list is getting bigger-but you were the first.

 

 

 

http://the510realm.c...php?f=3&t=15379

 

http://youtu.be/H4rYbyudrhA?t=55s  https://youtu.be/GZtp6PiFlTI?t=2s https://youtu.be/G4RjPtffZHI?t=2s