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A Series engine length?


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#1 innerloop

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 10:17 AM

Can someone tell me the length of an A series engine from the bellhousing mounting surface to the front of the pulleys (crank, water pump, alternator)?

 

I'm asking because I'm looking for a street car engine for a formula race car I'm working on and I only have about 20 inches to work with and I understand that the A series is very compact.  So I'm looking for a small inline 4 cylinder or maybe a small V-6 that will fit.  The other key requirement is that the starter needs to be on the engine side of the flywheel.

 

I'm open to makes of engines and I don't have a specific horsepower requirement other than more is better.  I'm not going to race the car, I just want to make it mobile again.  It would be nice if the stock clutch housing was less than 8 inches in diameter as that's the size of the car's bellhousing.  So will the A fit?

 

Thanks in advance.

 



#2 bananahamuck

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 01:12 PM

If you post pictures of your existing bellhousing there is a excellent chance the guys on here could tell you if it's Datsun or even what type of Datsun engine it used to have ,, if it had one . 

 

There is some serious Datsun savants on here 

.

 

.


So somehow while i was driving back from Eaglerock swap meet i somehow caused YOU to post this,,,, do really think members on this site are that stupid to believe i caused it??

http://community.rat...un-for-a-while/

Yeah i guess you do,,

 

BTW ,,,, the first person to call you a pussy,,,, ya might wanna check out his ethnicity ,, cuz i don't think it's what you think it is there snowflakeboy

 


..........................I shall call it, narclops.

 

 

 


#3 datzenmike

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 01:54 PM

It would be nice if the stock clutch housing was less than 8 inches in diameter as that's the size of the car's bellhousing.  So will the A fit?
 
Thanks in advance.

 

Formula... what?

I have no idea what transmission you have in mind but for certain the A series won't bolt to it. (well unless it's already an A series transmission) Most Datsuns, the starter is on the engine side but bolts to the transmission housing. If you have a 'bell housing' I doubt it is capable of attaching an A series starter and also position it to turn an A series flywheel. 

 

If allowed, and if short enough, get an A series with the transmission.


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#4 LenRobertson

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 03:57 PM

I measured the length of the A14 in my '77 F10. Although this is a front wheel drive model and the engine is transverse, as far as I know it uses the same A-series as the older RWD cars.

 

Anyway, the length from the rear face of the block to the front pulleys is approx. 19 1/2" to 20". The F10 doesn't use fan blades mounted on the water pump, it has an electric fan on the radiator, so this length is about to the front of the water pump shaft. Fan blades would add some length. But you may be able to do something with a remote radiator and electric fan.

 

Len

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#5 Stoffregen Motorsports

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 03:59 PM

I put a ten dollar bill on top of my A12 for reference.

 

Datsun_1200_motor002.jpg

 

It's actually a joke. I blew it up on the computer and printed it out



#6 distributorguy

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 08:27 AM

The MG A-series is about 18" overall length (17 3/4") from the back of the block to the nose of the water pump.  Plus you could trim that nose nearly 1/2".  You may be interested in the one I just measured.  It has a BMW head on it - dual overhead cams and 4 valves per cylinder with BMW EFI.  Bored to 1380 with an ultra-light reciprocating assembly set up to rev more like a bike than a car.  Factory "RS" cams and a little basic port work to reduce turbulence.  

 

The flywheel runs about 10 1/2", clutch under 8" overall.  



#7 innerloop

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 11:46 AM

Thanks LenRobertson, distributorguy and others for the measurements, that's what I needed to know and it sounds like the engine will just fit.

 

To supply some extra information to those interested, I'll be making an adapter plate to mate the engine to the existing bellhousing so I'll just have to include provisions for the starter mounting.  I need to retain the existing bellhousing as it contains many mounting points for the rear suspension and coilover shocks.  The lack of a cooling fan is a plus because of the limited space and I'll be using a sidepod mounted radiator anyway.  

 

The engine space is 22 inches long max.  I figure I'll lose about an inch on the adapter plate and I want to leave a decent gap at the front behind the bulkhead so I have about 19 or 20 inches to work with for an engine.  

 

I'm doing all of this to make the car mobile for car shows, parades, etc., not racing.  The original engine is too complex and way too expense (~$20k) for my needs.

 

Thanks again for all of the measurements.



#8 Crashtd420

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 12:04 PM

Sounds like a cool project... i like that you want to use a datsun engine...
Got any pics of the car.....

#9 Tom1200

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 10:18 PM

I measure my spare A12 (it's on a stand) and have 19 3/4" this is from the bell flange mounting surface to water pump centering boss (centers the fan) going to an electric water pump and would cut the the overall length down to 18 1/4" by virtue of removing the pump.

Also check on Nissan E15 from the Pulsar and early Sentra; I believe these are slightly shorter.

Curious as to what kind of car; I assume it's originally powered by MAE, FVA or Climax engine given the dimension and price. Lotus Twin Cams and BDAs are a few inches longer than that if I remember correctly.

Mike the A-series engines are a bonus for formula cars and sports racers, as the were widely used there are adapters for Hewland gearboxes as well as Webster/VW. It's the front engine rear drive stuff that's difficult. Ford Type 9s have been done but most,of,them were done as one offs by various competitors around the globe, probably a couple of dozen guys have done it but nothing commercially available or at least at a reasonable price. By contrast the Hewland adapters are $400-$600 depending on which one you buy.

#10 Stoffregen Motorsports

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 10:32 AM

I measure my spare A12 (it's on a stand) and have 19 3/4" this is from the bell flange mounting surface to water pump centering boss (centers the fan) going to an electric water pump and would cut the the overall length down to 18 1/4" by virtue of removing the pump.

Also check on Nissan E15 from the Pulsar and early Sentra; I believe these are slightly shorter.

Curious as to what kind of car; I assume it's originally powered by MAE, FVA or Climax engine given the dimension and price. Lotus Twin Cams and BDAs are a few inches longer than that if I remember correctly.

Mike the A-series engines are a bonus for formula cars and sports racers, as the were widely used there are adapters for Hewland gearboxes as well as Webster/VW. It's the front engine rear drive stuff that's difficult. Ford Type 9s have been done but most,of,them were done as one offs by various competitors around the globe, probably a couple of dozen guys have done it but nothing commercially available or at least at a reasonable price. By contrast the Hewland adapters are $400-$600 depending on which one you buy.

I was going to say... The E series is a great engine for formula or sports racers. I have built many E motors for DSR (D sports racer) and not only are they very simialr to the A series, they make about 190-230 hp. Not bad for a 1000 to 1600 cc motor.

 

Is the car some kind of vintage formula JR?



#11 Ranman72

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 09:45 PM

I like this you bought a race car to put around to car shows 

sweet 



#12 innerloop

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 03:58 PM

Sorry to be vague, guys, I didn't anticipate the level of interest.  The car is a 2000 G-Force GF05 Indy car.  It may have raced in the 500, but both teams that owned it over its life went out of business so I'm not sure.

 

You can see a picture of the engine compartment here:

 

 http://www.apexspeed...tid=75513&stc=1

 

The Chevy emblem is on the rollhoop, the black X-brace is part of a sub-frame made to take the place of the stressed original engine, and the grey thing behind that is the bellhousing. You can just see the two silver rods coming into the picture which are temporary replacements for the coilover shocks.

 

I'm not set on any particular engine.  I just need one that is short enough, has the starter on the engine side of the flywheel and has a clutch housing that is less than 8 inches in outside diameter.  Those are the parameters that are hardest to change.  Nice attributes to have after that would be a small diameter flywheel and a shallow oil pan so as to not rob any of the limited ground clearance.

 

I'll also look into the E15.  Stoffregen Motorsports, I may have some follow up questions based on your past experience.



#13 wayno

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 05:03 PM

Looks like an Indy 500 car, although it has been years since I actually watched a race like that, things may have changed.


 

 


#14 Tom1200

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 10:10 PM

Note that the O.D. on the flywheel is 10.66" but the FWD versions of the A-Series engines use a clutch set up whereby the clutch pack rides down inside flywheel. I think those may use a smaller diameter flywheel, I think it might be as small as 8". Hopefully one of the FWD guys will chime in.

Matt do tell more on the E-series; I still have some pieces for the E head on A block that I got from Bill Lomeneck (sp) that we never got around to. Once DSRs went to motorcycle engines no one bothered with Nissan motors. James Kuhns still has a ton of E-series race parts including a couple of engines. We could never come to an agreement, I'm cheap and he's not ready to deal with the huge depreciation. They used modded A12 cranks in the E15 block to meet the 1300cc displacement limit.

Back on topic; for that horrible Stallone Indy car movie they installed motorcycle engines in the cars that the actors drove. Bike engines might fit the bill.

#15 Stoffregen Motorsports

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:51 AM

The one key element of the E series that allows them to make so much power is the ports and overall cylinder head design. The angled intake ports shoot directly into the chamber. They are fairly strong engines with a good cam and valvetrain allowing them to rev very high.

 

We used custom billet cranks from Scat in both the DSR and GT4 engines. Also, custom pistons and Carrillo rods as well as a full dry sump oiling system and crank trigger ignitions round out the package.

 

It has been a long time since I have built one, but if I recall, the GT4 engines were capable of 230+ HP and revved easily up to 9K or 10K RPM's. I never built one on my own, all of them I assembled were when I worked for Rebello Racing.

 

Aftermarket support for the engine is very limited, but intake manifolds and oil pans are still out there.



#16 ol' 320

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:55 AM

I put a ten dollar bill on top of my A12 for reference.

 

Datsun_1200_motor002.jpg

 

It's actually a joke. I blew it up on the computer and printed it out

This turned out to be a sweet engine setup. I bought the 320 that Matt installed this block in.... And I have always liked that picture!