Engine trouble eh

[Dirtyowlnumber4]

Just rebuilt my '76 A14 Got it all together today, but it won't start up. It is backfiring and misfiring like the timing is off, but i fiddled with the distributor for a while and I couldn't find a spot where it came close to working.

 

Timing chain is in the right place, I cleaned out the jets on the carb but it still won't come close to starting out, wondering if I''m missing anything..

 

There one distributor position where i can hold it at an idle with full throttle, but it is off as well.

[Skib]

have you put a timing light on it?

[wayno]

The firing order is 1, 3, 4, 2, COUNTER CLOCKWISE, the other thing it could be is 180 out, but normally it will not run 180 out at all, it will just back fire.

[Cheetahking]

Like way no said - check your plug wire order.  Also - verify that at TDG you are near #1 on the distributor.  

[datzenmike]

If checking the TDC firing order and plug wire order isn't it, check that all the valves have at least some clearance when they are closed. If you can wiggle the rocker it's close enough to start, but if the rocker is firm it may be under spring load and it shouldn't.

 

An open valve will backfire through the carb or exhaust.

[Dirtyowlnumber4]

Couldn't keep it running long enough to put a timing light on it, it would only run at full throttle and even then at ~300 rpm and backfiring every revolution. I'll look at the valves and the wires again. 

 

I suppose if it was 180 degrees out I would have to take the timing cover off, was hoping to avoid that.

[datzenmike]

An engine won't run with the spark only happening on the exhaust stroke.

 

 

1 3 4 2

Assuming #1 is correct, then #4 will be also, but #3 and #2 plug wires on the plugs could be reversed.

[Tom1200]

OK go back to basics;

 

Pull the cap off the valve cover spin the motor around till you see the #1 intake valve go all the way down, once it starts back up watch for the timing mark on the crank pulley. Once the TDC mark is lined up check the following, rotor in the distributor is pointing to the #1 plug, the intake valve completely closed and that the #1 piston is indeed at top dead center.

 

Given that you got the motor to idle, albeit barely, I suspect you are a couple of teeth out on the distributor or you're one tooth off on the timing chain. If it does turn out to be the chain don't fret as it is possible pull the timing cover with the motor in place (ask me how I know). I now put the distributor on the motor before I put the timing cover and valve cover on.

 

A few weeks ago I swapped distributors on my race car and for the life of me couldn't get the car to fire. I followed the steps above and quickly figured out the distributor was one tooth off................Having raced the car for the past 28 years I could almost change the distributor in my sleep, I say "almost" because it was almost in the right place......oops.

[Dirtyowlnumber4]

Tried swapping the plugs over, didn't help much. When the engine was running it had a 1 2 4 3 firing order.

 

Valve clearance was fine, a little too much actually

 

I tried all 13 positions for the distributor to rule that out (since I cleaned my main pulley I revealed all the dents and scratches on it so I'm not sure which ones the timing mark anymore)

 

The way that the timing chain I got was marked it seemed difficult to get it in the wrong place, but if anyone could do it it would be me.

 

I rotated the engine until the first valve went down and the first cylinder was down as well, so I definitely goofed something up there

[datzenmike]

Tried swapping the plugs over, didn't help much. When the engine was running it had a 1 2 4 3 firing order.

Don't swap plugs, swap plug wires after confirming they are wrong first.

 

Set TDC using the timing mark on the crank pulley. Both valves on the #1 cylinder should be closed. Rotor should be pointing to #1 plug wire on the cap, going counter clockwise, the next ones go to the 3 4 2 spark plugs.

 

Engine should start. Unlikely more than one thing is wrong.

[kelowg]

If ur 180,u just move plug wires on cap 180. one at time so not mess up. Tho firing order,Which per ur post was or still is wrong. U most do all things/adjustments in the right order. Otherwise ull just keep chasing ur tail

[Dirtyowlnumber4]

Don't swap plugs, swap plug wires after confirming they are wrong first.

 

Thats what I tried sorry. They are right now

 

Set to tdc first two valves were closed valves 4 and 7 are open, first cylinder is at the bottom.

 

I don't know what I did.

[datzenmike]

Top Dead Center. TOP the piston should be at the top of it's travel compressing the fuel air mixture. This is when #1 plug should fire.

[Dirtyowlnumber4]

so i must have put something in backwards.

[wayno]

As far as I know it is not possible for the crank pulley to be at TDC(0 on timing plate) and have the number one piston be at the bottom, it is not possible, so you are not on the same page as the rest of us.

Pull number 1 spark plug and put a screwdriver in the hole and turn the crank by hand till the screwdriver doesn't go up any farther, now when you look down at the crank pulley the notch in the pulley should be close to TDC(0) on the timing marker plate on the front of the timing chain cover like in the photo below, it is a very small notch on the pulley but you need to find it.

 

 

Once you have the crank at TDC then pull the distributor cap and look at which spark plug wire post the rotor is pointed at, that is number one post that goes to number one spark plug, then around the cap you go counter clockwise 1, 3, 4, 2, it will not run any other way where is it derivable.

Now if the cam is not timed correctly you may be able to get it to run but it will not be derivable on the roads/freeways as it will barely move under it's own power.

I once bought a B210 for cheap, the guy had not timed the cam correctly and it would barely run, I took the front of the engine off and timed the cam correctly, I put it back together and it ran great.

[Dirtyowlnumber4]

I have tried the distributor at TDC, and in every other position it will go, so I know there is no problem with that. It won't come close to running well anywhere, and before it would halfway run even if the distributor was off one notch either way. The firing order I have is 1 2 4 3, thats how I had it before and thats what the manual says, but I have tried it other ways. 

 

When I put the timing chain on, there were little dots on the gears that lined up with two silver links on the chain so you can't put it on wrong, and got a piece of string between the notch on the cam gear and the crank gear just to make sure they lined up and they did, I don't think that is the problem but I may have to look at it

[datzenmike]

Datsuns are 1342.

 

No Datsun is 1243, ever. Only Ford uses this firing order

 

You may get an engine running with 1243 having the 2 and 3 swapped but you would have a two cylinder engine.

[Dirtyowlnumber4]

It is 1342 clockwise.. anyway it is the way that it was when it was running. I'm not sure, i might have tto take it down to the shop I've been tryin for a few days and haven't got anything.

[datzenmike]

Holy fuck it's been said here half a dozen times 1342 COUNTER CLOCKWISE! Same direction the rotor turns.

 

What 'manual' do you have anyway???

[wayno]

It obviously is not the way it was before as it is not running, you have to forget what you think you know and do what we have been telling you all along.

If you have a Ford manual you need to put it in the Ford as it obviously is not working on this Datsun A series engine.

So below is a page from my Clymer B210 manual, below is a page I scanned on how the timing gears are supposed to be set up, photo 34 shows the cam shaft gear dowel at 4:30 on the gear, the crank gear is the same, the key is at 4:30, the mark for the chain is around 12:30 on the cam shaft gear and aligns with the mark on the chain while the crank shaft gear mark is at 9:00 and aligns with the mark on the chain.

OK, I could not find anywhere in the manual where is put the firing order in print, but in the scanned photo below in the picture you can see number one plug wire going to the distributor, the next wire counter clockwise on the distributor goes to number 3 plug, the next one counter clockwise goes to number 4 plug, and the last one goes to number 2 plug.

If you have not done everything exactly the way the manual says on the pages I scanned for you it will never run, period.

[Dirtyowlnumber4]

thanks for the scans wayno, I did set mine up like that thats what my manual said to do it didn't mention the marks on the chains and sprockets but I did line those up, I guess I will take the timing set off and put it on again and not out the timing cover back on until I know it starts this time.

 

It would not be 180 degrees out if the valves on cylinder one are closed at TDC right?

[wayno]

I got to looking at the firing order he keeps talking about, 1, 2, 4, 3 clockwise is 1, 3, 4, 2 counter clockwise, not the way we think here as the rotor doesn't turn clockwise, but if it truly is as he said then the plug wires are in the correct order done clockwise and it should have run if everything else is correct.

Obviously everything else is not correct as it would have run.

[wayno]

thanks for the scans wayno, I did set mine up like that thats what my manual said to do it didn't mention the marks on the chains and sprockets but I did line those up, I guess I will take the timing set off and put it on again and not out the timing cover back on until I know it starts this time.

 

It would not be 180 degrees out if the valves on cylinder one are closed at TDC right?

 

Quit thinking about valves, you have to do it the way the photo is I scanned, the cam gear while connected to the cam has to be the way it is in the scanned photo with the camshaft dowel hole pointed directly at the crank, that will put the cam in the proper position, and the crank key groove needs to be pointed the same way, both need to be pointed at 4:30 and in line like in the photo, if the chain is put on while these 2 gears are that way then it doesn't matter about the chain marks. 

Both gears have marks on them, you said the chain had 2 silver links correct, them silver links should align with the marks on the cam and crank gears, if they don't then the gears are not aligned like the ones in the scanned photos.

[Dirtyowlnumber4]

Dear friends, thank you for all the help. I opened it up and it appears to be 180 degrees out, also noticed that cooolant was leaking into the oil so good thing I had a look.

[wayno]

The coolant could have got into the oil when you removed the front cover, or you could have another issue, keep that in mind.