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#1 Dirtyowlnumber4

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 02:19 PM

I have a '76 210 2 door saloon with an a14 engine I am trying to set up for rallycross.

 

I am looking for brake and suspension parts mostly but a racing carb, radiator and exhaust wouldn't hurt either, just wondering if anyone knew anywhere to buy these or if they exist.



#2 datzenmike

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 02:28 PM

Not much of a market for them. Check some of the B210 build threads. Old performance parts for sale on e Bay or craigslist maybe but you have to keep checking.

 

 

Usually a set of 280zx struts will lower the B-210 plus give you monster vented rotors and calipers. These will bolt in but you do need to prepare them first and use your B210 spring. You might want to go to 14" rims to clear the calipers.

 

Stock exhaust manifold is fine for now but have a shop that can bend custom exhausts make you a system using a pipe that is about 1/4" larger diameter, and run the largest muffler you can find. Turbo (not straight through) style sound ok.

 

A new Weber from Pierce Manifolds  


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#3 datsunfreak

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 04:01 PM

I am looking for brake and suspension parts mostly but a racing carb, radiator and exhaust wouldn't hurt either, just wondering if anyone knew anywhere to buy these or if they exist.

 

Carb:

 

http://www.pierceman...uct_p/K624.html

 

Radiator:

 

https://www.ebay.com...fNXilVt&vxp=mtr

 

Exhaust:

 

What he said. Slightly bigger pipe and new muffler. 


It's your car, just don't ruin it.


This seems like an elaborate ploy to get me to say "I like the D".


#4 datsunfreak

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 04:03 PM

I have a '76 210 2 door saloon with an a14 engine I am trying to set up for rallycross.

 

Also, you say rallycross, so preferred ride height? That will determine if there are any easy brake upgrades. 

 

And if you have points in that distributor (which you might), swap that out for an electronic ignition distributor from a newer B210/210. 


It's your car, just don't ruin it.


This seems like an elaborate ploy to get me to say "I like the D".


#5 datzenmike

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 05:26 PM

Good point datsunfreak. The better matchbox distributor was on all '79 vehicles so 210s not the earlier B210.

 

Although not really a performance upgrade the '78 and up vehicles had alternators with built in regulators. Simple enough conversion so you can get rid of the mechanical voltage regulator but much lower down on your list of 'to do' things.

 

The '76B-210 changed from a 3.90 to a 3.70 differential gear depending on the month. If you have a 3.70 changing to a 3.90 or even  better, a 4.11 will allow much faster take offs and improve acceleration in all gears. I can't find a 4.11 listed for the H-150 but you might be able to buy one for racing. Other than maybe poorer mileage it adds no extra strain to the engine and is a few hours work to do, but gives much better performance. I have a 710 with 3.70 and went to a 4.11 and am extremely pleased with it. 

 

Tires, tires, tires. Have come a long way since the B-210 was new. Good grippy tires will out perform a car with more power and poor tires.

 

Thicker sway bar on the front and maybe add a sway bar to the back to control body roll when cornering.

 

New shocks. They don't have to be those expensive ones, they just need to be new.


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#6 Dirtyowlnumber4

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 12:36 AM

Thx guys, a lot of help here. It does have points which are pretty rubbish. I will keep a lookout for 280 bits, the domestic discs in the front are heavy as hell and have tiny pads they are my main concern. The 280 has discs all around eh? Car can go lower for sure, but not too much.

 

I haven't taken the diff apart yet, I will open it up and see what kinda gear it has.



#7 datzenmike

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 06:05 AM

If you think the stock rotor is heavy wait till you see the 280zx one. It's a big upgrade for such a small car.

 

You won't easily be able to take the diff apart. One way you might ID the rear end is to raise one wheel off the ground and put transmission in neutral. Turn the wheel one turn and have someone count the turns of the driveshaft, or turn and count the driveshaft turns to turn the wheel one turn. If you find a differential that is already out the ratio is stamped on the outer edge of the ring gear 37/9 would be 4.11, 37/10 would be 3.70,  and so on


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#8 Tom1200

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 07:13 PM

If you haven't already go to Datsun1200.com as that's a good resource for A-series powered cars.

I'll try to go,in which order; it's been a number of years since I was a Rallycross organizer so some of my info may be out dated. First I will assume that your looking to run the car in 2wd modified class. Next given your location I'm also assuming you'll be running El Paso / Pan Am Region Rally-X events. I do remember video from their events posted on SpecialStage.com and the course were fairly choppy. So based on that my advice will be geared toward that.

First the motor; there are loads of A14 parts available it just depends on how much you want to spend; Delta Cams in Tacoma Washington can regrind a cam for you for around $75-100. Their so called 278 grind (278 duration .420 lift) would work in conjunction with some 40mm Weber DCOE carbs (available at from multiple suppliers) The cylinder head you want is the GX head; check in with Peter Zekert (PeterZekert.com) he's the Datsun 1200 guru and has various parts on an ongoing basis. Note a GX head may set you back upwards of $700. If you can't find a GX head use an oval port H89 head (your car may have one on it). Port work will consist of simply cleaning up the ports. Use SI valves they have a reduced stem diameter at the valve head to increase flow. Iskyderian stocks dual valve springs that you'll need for a performance cam. There are various pistons from other cars that fit (see Datsun1200 tech wiki) to increase the displacement. Headers are available from $150 to $1500 (custom titanium works of art) check eBay. Run a 2" to 2.25 exhaust. Run a 14lb flywheel, any machine shop can do this and the drawing for it is on Datsun1200.com. Use a distributor from a later 210, it's the so called matchbox distributor. To up the compression you can also buy a thinner head gasket, available form B-projects in Japan, they sell on EBay.

Do all of the above and the car should make around 95-105hp at the wheels. This will likely cost you between $1500 to $3000 depending on whether you buy new or get some smoking deals from your fellow Datsun-items.

As an alternative you can port the head you have, install a regrind, use the SI valves (I think they're about $150 a set) and use a Weber 32/36 carb (you can find them for as little as $75 used) and buy the basic header coupled to a 2" exhaust. All that will yield 75hp at the wheels. Remember there 50-55whp stock so it's more of a boost than you think.

I use a Sentra radiator in my 1200 race coupe; A15 powered making a whooping 105-110hp at the wheels.

You can't get to crazy with the motor because if you do you'll need a close ratio gearbox; that will set you back some serious cash. 2-3k easy. The stock 60 series 5 speed will work well enough.

As for the rear axle if you run the budget motor use the standard H150 rear axle; start hunting for a 4.11 & 4.38 ring and pinion. I use a 510 wagon axle in my coupe with a 4.38 limited slip. It has an alloy center diff housing and I use the aluminum scar drums, so it wieghs the about same as the stock 1200 unit (6lbs more) the limited slips are price; mine set me back $1300. Do not do not weld up the rear end, these cars don't make enough power. The car scrub to much speed on corner entry with the welded diff. Back in the day we ran an open diff in my stock class Volvo 144 and I never lost an event and wa usually no worse than 5th overall in 25 car fields. You can also install an H165 axle; those are off of A10 / 510s built from 78-82ish

If you can find a lower rear gear use a shorter tire; for example on my road race car I use a Hoosier Street TD bias ply 185/60-13 it's 20.6 tall versus a normal 185/195 radial which are 22-23" tall. When your shopping for tires check the diameter. Smaller tires also weigh less, the Hoosiers are 4lbs a tire lighter than most other tires. Note the Hoosier won't work for you but it gets you thinking about how to choose tires.

For suspension your in luck; the B210 use the 50mm / 2" struts, ClassicGarage has Koni inserts for 210s, you'll need to measure the rear shocks and than choose something close (I don't remember which bigger Datsun Konis work). The rear springs are fine as is. For the the fronts use a heavier Datsun; the 240z-280ZX springs fit. Do not fit a larger sway bar; in fact on bumpy courses take the front bar off. On the aforementioned Volvo (set up by a Finnish rally driver) had the bars removed, what you lose in cornering force you more than make for in suspension compliance which keeps the wheels planted, especially the rear wheels with an open diff.

#9 Tom1200

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:20 PM

OK continued........the wife rang the dinner bell.

The H190 axle is wider than the stock B210 axle, something like 3 inches so you'll likely need some FWD rims to compensate. A trick, if you can call it that, for the front lower control arms is to simply weld on bits of sheet metal to box them and or brace them. I use the ubiquitous 280ZX coil over set up because I got the entire suspension and steering cheap. We widened the 280ZX lower control arms to match the width of the H190 rear axle. The 280ZX stuff is heavy compared to the 1200/ B210 stuff, for Rally-X because you are likely going to want to keep the ride height and suspension travel I'd keep the stock struts. An alternative to the Koni dampers is to use VW Rabbit / Golf Bilsteins (check Datsun1200.com for more detail)Urethane bushing are also widely available, you may have to do some measuring to get all the bits you need.

As for the brakes; for rally-x you're using the brakes to turn the car more than that heavy threshold braking one does while road racing so I wouldn't kill myself trying to get monster brakes on the thing. Sadly I can't remember which calipers bolt on but I think the B310 or Sentra calipers will bolt on. They use larger pads and should more than do the trick. I prefer a lot of rear brake especially on a rally car. This is pretty easily achieved with larger wheel cylinders I think they vary between 11/16ths to 13/16ths. A side note here; if you fit DCOE carbs the master cylinder is the the way and you'll need to fit something like a Wilwood or Tilton pedal set. Those allow you to use a balance bar and forego playing with rear wheel cylinders. If you can find Ferodo pads for the stock front calipers go with Porterfield brakes shoes for the back. For B210 stock rear brakes you'll need to send Porterfield a set of shoes so they can fit the completion compound brake material.

So if I was going to run a B210 as 2WD modified class I'd do the following; fit a reground cam, SI Valves, port whatever head was on the car, fit a Weber 32/36 DGV carb, header, 2" exhaust, stiffer front springs (likely Z car) Bilstien or Koni dampers, some aggressive brake pads and shoes and some used rally tires or whatever the must have tire is (I think it's currently Firestone snow tire). If I found a 4.11 or 4.38 ring and pinion I'd fit that as well.

#10 0r0B210

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 01:22 AM

I can get you a full front suspension kit(tube, completely adjustable w/ spherical joints while converting it to a Macpherson strut type suspension[similar to s13]) for, probably, about $2.5K...$1.3K without adjustable coil-overs.  (Neither including a brake-kit, although can get a full brake kit...FULL...for about $2k- including master cylinder with remote reservoir-).  For the rear I would swap in a 4-link from a 210(B310) or 80's 200sx(same rear suspension) with the H150.  I can't wait to see pics!!!!


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#11 datzenmike

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 06:11 AM

That's some serious money. The B-210 is already McPherson strut suspension. I think all Datsun cars are. Easy ride height adjustability is fine if you need it to adjust for racing conditions. Most people set their ride height once and leave it. That's a lot of money just along for the ride.


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#12 0r0B210

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:57 PM

That's some serious money. The B-210 is already McPherson strut suspension. I think all Datsun cars are. Easy ride height adjustability is fine if you need it to adjust for racing conditions. Most people set their ride height once and leave it. That's a lot of money just along for the ride.

A FULLY-adjustable, tubed, ball-socket, multi-link, coil-overs, the works for $2.5K?  Cheap coil-overs are around $700-$900 alone, and if someone is building this car on a budget they wouldnt be going into rallycross, lol.

 

But, I, agree: $2.5K is a lot of money, regardless of what you are spending it on.  It just depends on if it's worth it to the driver, or not.


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#13 Tom1200

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 09:31 PM

Again my info is about a decade old but most of the lesser sedans in rally aren't using coil overs. As for coil overs the likes of DMS rally struts are easily $2500. Racing is a fantastic way to spend your kids and grand kids college fund.

#14 0r0B210

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 11:24 AM

Again my info is about a decade old but most of the lesser sedans in rally aren't using coil overs. As for coil overs the likes of DMS rally struts are easily $2500. Racing is a fantastic way to spend your kids and grand kids college fund.

"...lesser sedans..." 


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#15 0r0B210

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 11:36 AM

The easy tuning of the coil-over is what you want for, really, any racing application; unless you nail the suspension tuning(shock/spring combo) on the first try.  To be honest, if you make your stock control arms adjustable, you can get a bit more travel from them for use in rallycross.  A step further would be: you'd have to relocate the control arm mounting position more inward while using adjustable control arm to reach this new mounting location(similar to what you see on trophy trucks' front suspension).

 

If you dont want to go crazy on the suspension just buy really expensive adjustable shocks and a couple different spring-rated coils or buy the universal dual spring coil-over sleeve thing.  Anywho, have fun on that build!  Peace Brother. 

 

Have fun with that build!  Can't wait for pics!!!


- 0r0_B210


#16 Tom1200

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 05:13 PM

When I say lesser sedans I'd be referring to anything that isn't the AWD turbo missile black whole of cash things. Most notable being the unbiqitous VW Golf type cars. The key is that these type of cars of a known set up; you buy X rate spring and dampers and call it a day. My Volvo rally car was this way as well.

Our events were held on dry lake beds so suspension travel wasn't an issue but events held in rolling fields or gravel pits would quickly eat up the stock 6" inches these old cars have so if your serious, for,sure you'll be spending serious coin on suspension.

One of the guys on SpecialStage might know the "hot ticket" place to start would be the historic rally section; there are guys who've been rallying since the 70s on there.

Tom