AWD SR20DET swap into 510

[Terry Wrist]

Hello Ratsun Crew,

 

Newbie poster here who has a few questions for those well experienced in SR20 swaps.

 

I'm sure most of you have read fantasy 510 AWD threads in the past, and know that seems practically impossible to ever this (EJ20 / RB26 style) although anything is possible with loads of cash, so I'd like to ask specifically about one type of swap and get opinions from those in the know regarding why it can't be done.

 

Obviously the 510 is a front-engined rear-wheel drive car, with the engine mounted longitudinally. So the most logical and practical swap would simply be to replace the engine like for like. But, if you wanted to - how much front end work would actually be involved to swap in an AWD SR20DET engine/box/front drive? Specifically how hard would it be to:

 

1) mount the engine transversely, and 2) get CV joints lined up for the front wheels? (I assume I would be cutting chassis rails and 'adjusting' the front strut towers etc.).

 

I know this sounds very impractical, but if you came across a cheap 510, had access to a Gti-R SR20DET, and lived in a country where labor is super cheap and the law doesn't really care what you do to your ride......what would you guys do?

 

I can't help thinking that the engine bays just don't look 'that' different!

 

 

Opinions and advice are much appreciated!

 

Cheers,

[datzenmike]

Well aside from RWD sucking ass, I would think this would cost more than a proper RWD SR swap in the end even if your SR were free. Many have made the mistake of an engine swap merely because they 'had one laying around'. It's the worst reason.  The RWD swap is well documented, where as, you will be making lots of mistakes and assumptions and everything will require one off custom made parts. There is also the very real risk that your 510 will go past the point of no return and be destroyed.

[Terry Wrist]

Well aside from RWD sucking ass, I would think this would cost more than a proper RWD SR swap in the end even if your SR were free. Many have made the mistake of an engine swap merely because they 'had one laying around'. It's the worst reason.  The RWD swap is well documented, where as, you will be making lots of mistakes and assumptions and everything will require one off custom made parts. There is also the very real risk that your 510 will go past the point of no return and be destroyed.

 

Thanks very much for the reply Datzenmike - I hear what you are saying for sure, but what did you mean by 'RWD sucking ass' exactly?

 

The points you made are completely right about the cost and ruining the Datto in general, not to mention how much easier it is to just throw in an SR20 as people have been doing for the last 15 years or so. But things are a bit different where I am living at the moment.

 

FWIW, I had two 1600s (510s) back in the late 90s - first one had an L20B with twin SUs (Hitachi copies), a half-cage and a generous amount of body filler. The second one had a much nicer L18 with webers and a stanza box (really liked that config.), lowered with nice rims....she was my baby lol. So, clearly I am being a bit nostalgic with this build so you may have to humour me.

 

Now, I live in Thailand - and this is way, way, different to 'developed' countries in terms of the car business. Things are super, super, super, expensive here unless they are a locally made pick-up (hi-lux etc.). This makes it really hard to get anything fun, high quality or particularly enjoyable to drive. Here are some prices to help you guys can understand:

 

($US)

1. Brand new Subaru WRX - $80,000 (starting price)

2. Brand new Toyota Corolla - $32,600

3. 95-99 etc. Subaru Impreza WRX - $10,000 (average price - may not be genuine WRX)

** Monthly salary for a factory worker over here is about US$450 - ie. labor is cheap.

 

 

So, this is quite depressing for those looking for a nice bang-for-buck ratio. However, the good news is that while car-taxes are high, the law doesn't really care what you do to your car re:engine swaps - as long as the parts have been taxed properly. This means there are quite a few old Euros (E36, E46, E34, E39, Volvo 900/700s and old Mercs) running around with SRs/1JZ/2JZ engines.....and this got me thinking....

 

Given the driving I do and the road conditions here along with the weather, I would choose a late 90s Subaru Legacy GT Wagon - if I could get one here for Aussie prices (~$5k), but of course I can't and they often want even more silly money because they are so rare. The whole car hunting experience led me towards a nice Volvo 940 Wagon with a 2JZ GTE which should end up costing about US$8 tops - less than half that if I buy a sedan with a 1J or 2J non-turbo (GE)...... but then I came across a few Dattos. Here are some pics just for reference (prices are about US$4k - 7k) - sorry for the Thai text, as it won't mean much to you.

 

 

 

A bit depressing, but the 510s which appear to have been sold here back in the day have a live rear axle, and there are way more pick-ups around (521) - but they even seem to have a different front suspension set-up. This may mean that even if I did go down the 510 route with a 'normal' SR swap - I would likely still be trying to install an independent rear set-up of some sort.

 

Given the sort of fab work and mucking around I am already considering - I am just trying to get an idea of what structural mods I would have to do to get the SR20 mounted transversely....because this could?? give me AWD, and a very, very, unique Datto!

 

Anyway, I am just at the stage of wanting to hear some 'deal-breaker' reasons why this couldn't be done aside from money (as it's not the same here as the states for example). I know it would NEVER be a sensible option, but I figure life is short and I wouldn't be able to afford half of this type of modification back in Australia, for example, so....... why not!

 

It's been a decade and a half since I last looked in the engine bay of a Datto, and I've never seen the Gti-R engine bay up close so I am hoping some of you guys may be able to give me some more input there.

 

All opinions are very welcome - feel free to flame away, but it would also be nice to get some good news too lol.

[Crashtd420]

Well i love crazy outside the box ideas so I'll chime in...

First since a own a 521....

A gtr 521 would be sick too....

But with your idea... the 510....

Anything is possible but it maybe get a little ugly in the process.....

If I was gonna attempt I would start with measurements of the gtr and 510...

In my opinion you would need a solid donor gtr and hopefully a 510 with no drivetrain... why pay for it if you don't need it....

I believe they are both uni-body, now is where the measurements would matter..

I would either use the entire floor pan and structure of the gtr and graft the 510 body onto it.....

Or cut the gtr into a front and rear sections.... still using every thing from the gtr underneath under the 510.....

I think the width would be your biggest concern.. if the gtr is too wide then the suspension locations will be a problem..

But that can be creativly corrected... length i dont think would be an issue since the rear driveshaft can be shortened to accomodate the shorter 510....

I would use nothing more than the shell of the 510, to do this, 90% gtr....

[datzenmike]

I grew up with and have a better feel for RWD cars.

 

Solid axles are good and better for a performance car. IRS, when stiffened with stronger springs, shocks and with a sway bar to correct rear camber steering under load or letting of the throttle you may as well have solid anyway.

 

For longitudinal mount you may need to build and install a mini sub frame in the front. Then there's the steering. Maybe the front end from the SR car can be cut and grafted on with everything???

[BrandonS]

I had contemplated this as well.  The best course of action, IMO, would be to utilize a Pulsar GTI-R with the transverse SR20DET and AWD.  At a minimum past a normal engine swap you'd be looking into where to locate the lower control arm mounts as you would be swapping over it's front hubs, suspension travel may differ so you may have to do strut inserts/custom springs, probably will need to lenghten or shorten front CV Axles, then a custom drive shaft to whatever rear end you pick.

 

It doesn't seem impossible by any means; but it isn't a weekend job either and will consider a lot of fore thought so you don't end up with a ripped apart Pulsar, engine, and an unusable 510 body.

[flatcat19]

Put the 510 body on to the pulsar frame. Way less work.

 

 

Or...just buy a 510, and buy a pulsar. Then, get this, you leave them alone.

[Terry Wrist]

Thanks very much for all the replies guys....all opinions appreciated.

 

I'm not really worried about the amount of work involved as I could never do this myself, so the real concern would be actually locating a proper shop who could do the work well - this would be the real challenge. The labor shouldn't be too difficult and if I could locate a front-cut from a Gti-R then I could possibly franken-fit a fair amount of stuff subject to widths etc. The subframe and cross-member?? would be the key things by the sound of it, thanks for that.

 

Ultimately, while it may end up being in the too-hard basket (a Volvo 940 wagon with a 2JZ GTE being a pretty cheap and attractive alternative....while never a Datto lol), I really wanted to get to the crux of why it practically 'can't be done'. I'm really thinking that it may come down to strut tower location - or would a custom subframe be able to manage both the need for the engine to connect to the front axles correctly while also not being hindered by the location of the strut towers?

 

All the advice is really appreciated - if I had the language skills I would simply go to a local and experienced shop and try to get an idea of how feasible it could be.

 

FWIW, here is an SR20DET out of what I think must be an Avenir GT4 (Auto) - and this could be nice as it's an auto TBH, flame away but if I went ahead with this project I would still like to end up with something that can be daily driven in a city of crazy traffic! The price is just under US$800 and I would imagine another $800 would have the equivalent RWD engine fitted, for reference. The cost I need to determine is the fabrication work for suspension, drive, and motor mount/sub frame etc... it seems.

 

 

[Terry Wrist]

And I just found this one too for reference - a front-cut from a JDM X-Trail SR20VET NEO (US$2.5k)......would this mean I could utilise the 2WD/4WD/Lock selectable diff as well?? That would be pretty cool.

 

[ByStickel]

Try it first on an HL510.

 

If you take some very basic measurements, like the distance inside the strut towers, and outside-to-outside of the front wheels on both, you will probably find out that every possible donor car is MUCH wider. Even a Miata NA is wider than a PL510.

 

Even if it did fit, you would need to find a place to put your cooling system, because the engine will take up all of the space in front of the strut towers.

 

If I were to do it, I would look into adapting another longitudinal awd system, or adding a transfer case and front diff, as Ken Block has on the AWD Mustang. Big money, I am sure.

[flatcat19]

Do t forget hubs that have the ability to accept drive axles for the front...beings that a PL510 uses spindles to hold its current hubs on.

[Crashtd420]

I had contemplated this as well. The best course of action, IMO, would be to utilize a Pulsar GTI-R with the transverse SR20DET and AWD. At a minimum past a normal engine swap you'd be looking into where to locate the lower control arm mounts as you would be swapping over it's front hubs, suspension travel may differ so you may have to do strut inserts/custom springs, probably will need to lenghten or shorten front CV Axles, then a custom drive shaft to whatever rear end you pick.

 

It doesn't seem impossible by any means; but it isn't a weekend job either and will consider a lot of fore thought so you don't end up with a ripped apart Pulsar, engine, and an unusable 510 body.

I bet the wheel base would be alot closer.. nice idea.....

[Terry Wrist]

Thanks again for the replies guys - good to hear all your thoughts.

 

I think I have hit a roadblock - or rather I have found the crux of why it wouldn't 'work' for me.

 

It comes down to annoying Marketing really, or the fact that there are too many versions of the Nissan ATTESA system. It is really hard to find accurate information online about the early ATTESA systems and a lot of opinions being posted as fact which makes things difficult. To me, it seems the ATTESA system must be divided into 2 categories:

 

1) RWD application, with AWD kicking in to correct mistakes then reverting back to RWD-style drive --> In 'normal conditions' drive is sent F:R   0:100

2) FWD application, with AWD kicking in to correct mistakes then reverting back to FWD-style drive --> In 'normal conditions' drive is sent F:R   100:0

 

It is way more complex than that with several variants of the ATTESA system using increasing amounts of technology etc...., but you could say cars like the Skyline/GT-R, Stagea, Laurel, Cefiro etc use the RWD system, while cars like the Avenir, Bluebird, Primera, Pulsar/Sunny, Prairie, and x-trail use the FWD system - obviously based on their respective engine layouts of course.

 

The thing I didn't realise was that despite their being 3? sort of versions of the SR20 in AWD mode (Gti-R, Avenir, X-Trail) NONE of them would ever behave like the RWD application above...grrrr. As ByStickel rightly pointed out - what I would really want is an SR20 AWD setup which is the same as that of the RB25/6 setup (transfer case and front diff under the engine in longitudinal form I believe?). And despite the fact this engine was used in a pretty mean RWD application, Nissan Silvia (any others?), there were no efforts ever to make a RWD application ATTESA system for an SR20 which I could find... :(

 

This is a massive shame and something I should have realised from the beginning. I just didn't realise that the 'rally inspired' Gti-R wouldn't have some sort of full-time AWD system. Even the X-Trail I posted above can't do AWD/Full-time 4x4??? - and it has a 'Lock' setting! 

 

So, it seems that is it for me. Aside from all the obvious difficulties and impracticalities of trying to franken-fit a Gti-R AWD system & SR into a Datto (widths, suspension, brake, cooling locations, subframe etc...), the swap would actually turn a really cool, well-balanced, ahead-of-its-time, compact RWD sedan into a FWD car! Which for me would be quite disappointing.

 

Have to do some serious thinking now - 510/1600 with SR20DET (RWD of course), vs Volvo 940 Wagon with a 2JZGTE......hmmm I reckon I know which choice you guys would make!

 

Cheers again for all the input.

 

Here is a nice pic (I'm sure you have seen it before) to remind us that sometimes the impossible can be possible......and mad.

 

 

[flatcat19]

I say Volvo.

 

 

It sounds more pleasing knowing some third world hack is cutting on a Volvo vs a Datsun.