Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Is Go Kart steering possible


  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#21 Duke

Duke

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,178 posts
  • Location:Santa Rosa, CA
  • Cars:'72 Datsun 510

Posted 28 September 2017 - 08:29 AM

I did have done a lot of work on the front suspension of my car.  It is primarily an autocross/hillclimb car so quick and precise steering is paramount.  Over last winter I did a complete re-hash of the steering system that included a quick steer rack.  The rack is 2.2 turns lock to lock.  Not only is it quicker than the old steering box, but having completely new steering gear has made an immense difference.  There is no more dead feeling on center.  When I turn the wheel, the car RESPONDS!  Here is a video of a recent as an example of how responsive the steering is.

 


Duke

'72 Ratsun 510

Simplify and add lightness.

#22 KamakSun

KamakSun

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 96 posts
  • Location:San Diego
  • Cars:69 510, 99 E36 M3, 11 CTS V

Posted 28 September 2017 - 08:42 AM

Duke,

Please let us know how you accomplished this!

Thank you,

Kamaksun

#23 datzenmike

datzenmike

    KING RAT

  • User Administrator
  • 68,772 posts
  • Location:Vancouver Island
  • Cars:'74 710 sedan, '76 710. prevoius... '78 620, '71 521, '68 510 new '76 B-210

Posted 28 September 2017 - 09:02 AM

You want quicker response... get a gym membership.


Posted Image

#24 Duke

Duke

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,178 posts
  • Location:Santa Rosa, CA
  • Cars:'72 Datsun 510

Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:29 PM

Duke,

Please let us know how you accomplished this!

Thank you,

Kamaksun

 

Here is the link to the steering mods I have done.  Not exactly a bolt in affair.  A bunch of the pictures on my build thread have been lost due to the lame photobucket bs, but there is some info  on there about other suspension stuff I have done.

 

http://community.rat...-car/?p=1491062

 

You want quicker response... get a gym membership.

 

Haha, seriously.  Rowing a steering wheel back and forth isn't the easiest thing.  The steering in my car is pretty heavy (wide, sticky tires, 6+ degrees of caster, quick steering) and is a total bear at low speeds.  Armstrong power steering is a must.


Duke

'72 Ratsun 510

Simplify and add lightness.

#25 Son_of_a_Datsun_Guy

Son_of_a_Datsun_Guy

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,007 posts
  • Location:Bay Area, Los Altos California
  • Cars:1972 Datsun 510 Wagon

Posted 03 October 2017 - 02:18 PM

Part of your problem is that you won't ever achieve better steering feel without giving something up in return. For instance, you can achieve optimal feel and directness of input by replacing your tie rod ends with spherical bearing rod ends (solid end links is what some people call them I think), but in return you feel EVERY bump, nook, cranny, and rock in the road. 

 

Rack and pinion set ups are similar.  While you're going to get a better steering feel, the amount of fab work and headache that goes along with it is sizable. Even with the crossmember kit mentioned earlier you'll run into problems, as it will limit you to front sump engine configurations.


938f1bc9-6fd2-4d35-94b9-9fca88b08806_zps

 

Nothing ever goes as planned.

 

http://community.rat...g-72-510-wagon/

 


#26 thisismatt

thisismatt

    Senior Damon

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,267 posts
  • Location:Santa Barbara, CA
  • Cars:'71 521, '69 521 donor

Posted 03 October 2017 - 04:00 PM

Part of your problem is that you won't ever achieve better steering feel without giving something up in return. For instance, you can achieve optimal feel and directness of input by replacing your tie rod ends with spherical bearing rod ends (solid end links is what some people call them I think), but in return you feel EVERY bump, nook, cranny, and rock in the road. 

 

Rack and pinion set ups are similar.  While you're going to get a better steering feel, the amount of fab work and headache that goes along with it is sizable. Even with the crossmember kit mentioned earlier you'll run into problems, as it will limit you to front sump engine configurations.

Out of curiosity, why do you think heims/spherical bearings/rod ends are more harsh than tie rod ends?  Tie rods are a ball & socket, similar to rod ends.


I'm your huckleberry.

One jump ahead of the lawmen
That's all, and that's no joke
These guys don't appreciate I'm broke

#27 Stoffregen Motorsports

Stoffregen Motorsports

    Datsun Mechanic

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,639 posts
  • Location:Cool, CA
  • Cars:http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/features/rover/0611_4wd_1957_range_rover/viewall.html

Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:48 AM

Out of curiosity, why do you think heims/spherical bearings/rod ends are more harsh than tie rod ends?  Tie rods are a ball & socket, similar to rod ends.

There are a couple reasons, actually.

 

First is that TRE's are spring loaded and greased. The combination of the spring and grease take up any slack or wear, to a point.

 

Second is that heims wear and become clunky.

 

Third is that the market is flooded with junk heim joints. I would bet 80% of the cars or trucks out there using heims are using the wrong ones or cheap ones, which again, lead to wear and clunking or even total failure.

 

When I use heims, I use them sparingly. I try to never use them on steering components, because of the above reason. When I am forced t use heims (usually due to space restraints), I try to use them only on one end of a control arm or panhard rod, with either a poly bushing or a poly bushed heim (Johnny Joint) on the other end.



#28 thisismatt

thisismatt

    Senior Damon

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,267 posts
  • Location:Santa Barbara, CA
  • Cars:'71 521, '69 521 donor

Posted 10 October 2017 - 03:44 PM

There are a couple reasons, actually.

 

First is that TRE's are spring loaded and greased. The combination of the spring and grease take up any slack or wear, to a point.

 

Second is that heims wear and become clunky.

 

Third is that the market is flooded with junk heim joints. I would bet 80% of the cars or trucks out there using heims are using the wrong ones or cheap ones, which again, lead to wear and clunking or even total failure.

 

When I use heims, I use them sparingly. I try to never use them on steering components, because of the above reason. When I am forced t use heims (usually due to space restraints), I try to use them only on one end of a control arm or panhard rod, with either a poly bushing or a poly bushed heim (Johnny Joint) on the other end.

 

Thanks, I didn't realize that TREs were loaded that way.


I'm your huckleberry.

One jump ahead of the lawmen
That's all, and that's no joke
These guys don't appreciate I'm broke

#29 Icehouse

Icehouse

    wolf man

  • User Administrator
  • 5,644 posts
  • Location:seattle WA
  • Cars:57 VW SC - 59 210 - 64 VW camper - 2 68 510 2 dr - 70 bluebird coupe - 3 71 510 2 drs - 73 1200 ute

Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:03 PM

Part of your problem is that you won't ever achieve better steering feel without giving something up in return. For instance, you can achieve optimal feel and directness of input by replacing your tie rod ends with spherical bearing rod ends (solid end links is what some people call them I think), but in return you feel EVERY bump, nook, cranny, and rock in the road. 

 

Rack and pinion set ups are similar.  While you're going to get a better steering feel, the amount of fab work and headache that goes along with it is sizable. Even with the crossmember kit mentioned earlier you'll run into problems, as it will limit you to front sump engine configurations.

 

 

Tie rods are swapped to heim joints by companies like T3 and others not for less deflection but so you can "adjust" out the bump steer.  People like shinny bits so I'm sure most cars don't even have them adjusted correctly.

 

 

In my experience with stock suspension bandaid to the max (steering box brace, heim, joints, etc) it doesn't even compare to having one of our rack conversion crossmembers in a 510.  I don't even say that in hopes to sell one, I say it because I daily drive and race my car and have driven ton's of 510's.  For 5 years I worked with a good buddy building nothing but 510's and I can say I've driven my share of 510's setup in different ways.  Steering boxes just equal so much less feedback.  

 

Why does everyone hate front sump?  In all my years I've only ever had one issue and it won't have mattered if it was front or rear sump.  Rear sump pans are a false sense of security!!  

 

I will agree it is a pain to install our crossmember if you don't like a little bit of fab work and some tinkering around.  Also the exhaust sucks to deal with on an L series.  But I avoid L's at all costs.   


Posted Image Posted Image

"All men by nature desire knowledge."
Aristotle

#30 paradime

paradime

    Datsun Mechanic

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,184 posts
  • Location:Easy Bay, 510 Area code
  • Cars:72 510 SR20 2 door, 01, Acura MDX, Valocci Electric Motorbike.

Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:19 PM

Tie rods are swapped to heim joints by companies like T3 and others not for less deflection but so you can "adjust" out the bump steer.  People like shinny bits so I'm sure most cars don't even have them adjusted correctly.

 

 

In my experience with stock suspension bandaid to the max (steering box brace, heim, joints, etc) it doesn't even compare to having one of our rack conversion crossmembers in a 510.  I don't even say that in hopes to sell one, I say it because I daily drive and race my car and have driven ton's of 510's.  For 5 years I worked with a good buddy building nothing but 510's and I can say I've driven my share of 510's setup in different ways.  Steering boxes just equal so much less feedback.  

 

Why does everyone hate front sump?  In all my years I've only ever had one issue and it won't have mattered if it was front or rear sump.  Rear sump pans are a false sense of security!!  

 

I will agree it is a pain to install our crossmember if you don't like a little bit of fab work and some tinkering around.  Also the exhaust sucks to deal with on an L series.  But I avoid L's at all costs.   

 

I have to agree with Icehouse here. Not because I have one of his rack and pinion kits in my car, but... Okay it's because I have one, but the feel is lightyears beyond the old box. Before converting it, I had full race Troy Ermish built front suspension with a steering brace. It was stiff but still had that sluggish vague spring like deflection at the wheel. At a stop you had to turn the wheel 15 degrees before enough tension loaded up in the steering to turn the tires. The R&P is super crisp and immediate with positive feedback. I've also been able to take some of the caster out of the coil overs to lighten up the steering without adding bump steer. That being said, with sticky 195 r15s it takes some serious upper body strength to throw the car around a track. Adding electric power assist is our next step towards go kart like steering and a more enjoyable driving experience.


36028318531_e4983e3724_m.jpg


The blocked list is getting bigger-but you were the first.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=GZtp6PiFlTI

 

 

http://youtu.be/H4rYbyudrhA?t=55s


#31 G-Duax

G-Duax

    prickly in San Antonio

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 751 posts
  • Location:San Antonio, The Republic of Texas
  • Cars:73 620 & 90 Toyota Cressida

Posted 11 October 2017 - 08:46 AM

What I would have to say would fall on deft ears. 



#32 Duke

Duke

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,178 posts
  • Location:Santa Rosa, CA
  • Cars:'72 Datsun 510

Posted 11 October 2017 - 09:44 AM

What I would have to say would fall on deft ears. 

 I read your original post and couldn't agree more.  I don't think I would want anything close to go kart steering on an actual car.  I would imagine it would be nearly impossible to control.

 

I have also heard that once you drive a real race kart, everything feels like slow motion once you get back in a car.


Duke

'72 Ratsun 510

Simplify and add lightness.

#33 Icehouse

Icehouse

    wolf man

  • User Administrator
  • 5,644 posts
  • Location:seattle WA
  • Cars:57 VW SC - 59 210 - 64 VW camper - 2 68 510 2 dr - 70 bluebird coupe - 3 71 510 2 drs - 73 1200 ute

Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:13 AM

 I read your original post and couldn't agree more.  I don't think I would want anything close to go kart steering on an actual car.  I would imagine it would be nearly impossible to control.

 

I have also heard that once you drive a real race kart, everything feels like slow motion once you get back in a car.

 

 

Simple solution.  Take the wife's car for a spin, after driving my wife's Leaf my 510 feels like a go-cart for sure! 


Posted Image Posted Image

"All men by nature desire knowledge."
Aristotle

#34 paradime

paradime

    Datsun Mechanic

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,184 posts
  • Location:Easy Bay, 510 Area code
  • Cars:72 510 SR20 2 door, 01, Acura MDX, Valocci Electric Motorbike.

Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:44 AM

I don't think KamakSun used "Go Kart Steering" as a literal statement, but a figurative one to imply tighter, crisper, quicker steering. At least that's the way I took it. I also think it's important to clarify that my car is not a daily driver.

 

We all know 510s not only have Macpherson strut front suspensions, but independent semi trailing arm trail through rear suspensions with open or LS differentials. Short of welding everything up solid and shedding 1000 off it, the 510 will never have anything approaching a kart. It appears Duke's car is as close to F1 like steering I've ever seen on a Dime. VERY IMPRESSIVE. I would imagine that's exactly what KamakSun is looking for. 


36028318531_e4983e3724_m.jpg


The blocked list is getting bigger-but you were the first.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=GZtp6PiFlTI

 

 

http://youtu.be/H4rYbyudrhA?t=55s


#35 G-Duax

G-Duax

    prickly in San Antonio

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 751 posts
  • Location:San Antonio, The Republic of Texas
  • Cars:73 620 & 90 Toyota Cressida

Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:39 PM

Yeah, I know, just having a bad day.......

 

And Duke, your right.

And if you ever run open slot cars, karts seem slow.

Funny how doing one thing, effects how you look at other things.



#36 DaBlist

DaBlist

    Datsun Mechanic

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,565 posts
  • Location:North Bend Wa
  • Cars:Had 521 & 1200, Now 71 Chevy SWB, 72 BMW, 2010 Tahoe

Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:45 PM

 I don't think I would want anything close to go kart steering on an actual car.  I would imagine it would be nearly impossible to control.

 

 

I put a Z3 rack in an E36 because it was easy and cool to talk about. Made it worse for commuting.


 "It's like comparing a wooden roller coaster to a modern modern roller coaster. Without a doubt the modern roller coaster is faster, quieter and smoother. But people still love to ride the wooden roller coasters. The sounds, vibrations, jerks and jolts all add to the experience. Sure a wooden roller coaster may not be as fast, but it's sure a fun ride that can equally scare the crap out of you." - Annette

 

"is it racist to assume that cauliflower is just white entitled broccoli ?" - jrock

 

"You spend a lot of time pushing on doors that say pull, don't you?" - mhub91

 

Light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear bright until they speak - www