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Steering box brace - any good?


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#1 Eriks

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 11:47 PM

Why would you want one? Any experiences? 

 

steering-box-brace1.jpg?1484263661



#2 datzenmike

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 07:22 AM

If competition driving or you like to throw your car around corners, some say that the car sub frame flexes and you can actually feel it. I doubt most drivers could tell the difference but if you want maximum assurance that the steering box is stable and your steering is going where you want it, then this is the thing to have.

 

 

Here are two more items that play on car owners insecurities that they don't have a race car handling vehicle.

 

Strut brace

20130501_185019_zps9d427215.jpg

 

 

Engine torque strap.

79520260.lhz6q0Sy.jpg


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#3 Stoffregen Motorsports

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 10:12 AM

The steering box brace is more for structural integrity. Cracks can occur in the steering box area and the brace just helps keep this flex at bay, which keeps the cracks from forming.

 

The strut tower brace is a whole 'nother thing. The brace allows the suspension to do its job more effectively. Think of it like this: would you rather have your chassis do the flexing or your suspension? On race cars, to be competitive, car owners spend a lot of time on suspension tuning. If your chassis is part of the suspension (which it should not be), the flex is hard if not impossible to account for. Bracing added to known flexible areas of the chassis eliminate chassis flex from the suspension equation, allowing your suspension tuning to be more effective. A good roll cage is also a form of brace.

 

On 510's with rear coil over conversions, it's also a good idea to strengthen the tie between the two rear shock towers, as now the loading is at the tip of the shock towers, where it was not designed to be.

 

The engine brace is only needed on engines that have super soft engine mounts. Both of my Volvos (a 1971 145 and a 2003 V70 T5R) had them stock. Early MGb's had them stock also. I would never use solid mounts on an engine brace though, as you see in Mike's pic.

 

These things are cheap and look cool (if done right) so I say go for it. Can't hurt.



#4 G-Duax

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 02:34 PM

Big power engines, or driving abuse can rip stock type engine mounts apart.

Solid engine mounts can induce block flex on some engines, like my 6-cyl Toyota.

Some people use a stiff poly donut with a bolt through it, but this allows forward/back, and side to side movement, so not an answer either.

 

Found these in Japan, made by Kazama.

They allow some movement, and sound deadening, but can take 1000 HP without failing.

 

nengun-2506-02-kazama-engine_transmissio

 

People like XM, and others in this country copy the design.



#5 sebpv

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 05:55 PM

looks like normal bushing welded in a pack
Blame my french side if you don't understand

https://www.flickr.c.../113076263@N04/

#6 G-Duax

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 07:54 AM

If the rumor I read is correct, they are suspension bushings from the Toyota AE86, pressed into the steel tubes that are welded together.

 

But back to the original subject........

I remember observing the steering box on my son's first 510 move around, and had to brace it.

So yeah, any type of performance driving, especially with sticky tires, I sure would brace it.

Nice that someone offers a kit to do it  :)



#7 distributorguy

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 04:16 AM

The first thing I though when seeing those engine mounts was "front spring eyes".  Very high durometer rubber, so more stiff than the average poly bushing, in tandem.  Great idea!  



#8 Ratwagon1600

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 09:19 AM

Yep, likes me a good steering box brace.

I can definitely notice a difference in the steering response in the cars ive had one installed in.

Hahahaha RW bring called an ass kisser is awesome. Don't know him personally but he always seemed belligerent, not brown nosey.

You have standards?

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#9 hang_510

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 05:41 PM

If you like to throw your car around corners,
if you want maximum assurance that the steering box is stable and your steering is going where you want it, then this is the thing to have.

∆thats why.
The steering has never been great, so a small brace makes a big difference.

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I'll put on chain mail and a dirt bike tire jock strap and drive it!!!!!


#10 paradime

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 11:43 PM

I'd recommend having a box brace over not having one IF you run fat stick front tires. As for a strut brace it is not recommended or used by Troy Ermish who holds lap records at Laguna, Willow, and Sonoma with his 510. The firewall is a massive lateral sheer brace that is only a few inches away from the strut towers. The only force exerted on the top of the tower is directly upward from the tension of the spring and shock. All of the torsional forces are exerted at the bottom crossmember and through the TC rods. If you are running race slicks you might experience some body flex, but it would twist the body not move one strut independent of the other. There is no lateral stabilization provided from a rod with hinged connection points at the top of the tower. If you want to eliminate body flex use a 6 point roll cage.  


36028318531_e4983e3724_m.jpg


The blocked list is getting bigger-but you were the first.

 

 

 

http://the510realm.c...php?f=3&t=15379

 

http://youtu.be/H4rYbyudrhA?t=55s  https://youtu.be/GZtp6PiFlTI?t=2s https://youtu.be/G4RjPtffZHI?t=2s

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#11 datzenmike

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 06:08 AM

Agreed. Strut braces are 'monkey see... monkey do'. Everyone has one.... so everyone has one. No street car is a race car without one.


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#12 Stoffregen Motorsports

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 09:04 AM

I disagree. They do minimize flex in the front end. And since they are cheap and easy to build, and don't weigh a lot or get in the way too much, I would build one (or buy one). But as stated, they are only really needed on a competition car.

 

As per Troy's car, it has been braced with other tubing welded to the body, so that's not a very straightforward comparison.



#13 Mattndew76

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:41 AM

A Pre-load brace makes the car very stiff.

 

A good setup for strut towers is a triangle with tunable braces. 

 

image of a BRZ rigid brace without turnbuckles. The concept is sound. 

 

tanabe%20brzstrut.jpg

 

There are other more permanent ways to stiffen flex points on a car. For everyday driving these types of items really aren't needed though.


An idea doesn't work unless you do.  


#14 paradime

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 12:21 AM

The 510 unibody is far more rigid than body on frame cars of the same era. 70s big block Mustangs for instance had a V brace from the top of the firewall to the shock towers, but no cross brace. The stang was a body on frame design though so it needs it. Think about it, the 510 body is a welded together steel box. If the entire body was flexing significantly (enough to alter suspension tuning) in corners, the body would fall apart. 

 

36002136900_e6b9624044_b.jpg

 

35591586003_0194d9c5cb_z.jpg

 

Look how close the brace is to the super rigid firewall. Given that the brace is up so high, I just don't see any g force geometry that would flex the top of the strut towers together in a corner. if anything, one would rise relative to the other, but a flimsy little hinged rod way up there isn't going to help.


36028318531_e4983e3724_m.jpg


The blocked list is getting bigger-but you were the first.

 

 

 

http://the510realm.c...php?f=3&t=15379

 

http://youtu.be/H4rYbyudrhA?t=55s  https://youtu.be/GZtp6PiFlTI?t=2s https://youtu.be/G4RjPtffZHI?t=2s

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#15 datzenmike

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 06:03 AM

Hitting the nail on the head. No one drives their car hard enough, nor can it be driven hard enough, to cause any flex attributed to the strut towers moving. Nor would anyone less than a race car driver driver know the difference in the first place. If the strut towers moved inward the hood would be pinched, outward, the gap would open up. Hood and fendres would buckle, no one ever sees or mentions this. Not that it doesn't move, just not in any amount that would be significant. 


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#16 Stoffregen Motorsports

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 09:42 AM

Think about it, the 510 body is a welded together steel box. If the entire body was flexing significantly (enough to alter suspension tuning) in corners, the body would fall apart. 

 

 

They do fall apart.

 

My first 510 street car was so torn up that it started popping spot welds and seams. It was so bad that we just threw it away and started over with a fresh shell. And no, it wasn't worn out from being crashed. Just driven too hard for too long.

 

I've seen my fair share of torn up 510 body tubs.



#17 Stoffregen Motorsports

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 09:43 AM

And Mustangs are unibody.



#18 paradime

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 10:58 AM

Mixed up Mustang and Camaro. The frame rails bolt to a passenger box and the entire front and rear can be remover with a few bolts. Like most American cars of the time, Camaros flexed so much under power they'd lift one front tire. I will concede though, that is a hybrid and not full frame on, but is not a full unibody like a 510. The mustang's frame rails were also bolted on, but the bolts were welded up so they wouldn't back out.

 

Be honest now Stoffregen, was that 510 falling apart from hard cornering on the street, or were you doing "other things" with it? :rolleyes: I know I did with my first 510. I played Rally Car Driver on the washed out dirt roads behind our house in Rosarito Mexico, Speed bumps were a challenge not a deterrent, and got serious air off Tutus st. hill 1000 times in my old hood. Did that for three years straight in my bone stock 68 and nothing worse for ware. 


36028318531_e4983e3724_m.jpg


The blocked list is getting bigger-but you were the first.

 

 

 

http://the510realm.c...php?f=3&t=15379

 

http://youtu.be/H4rYbyudrhA?t=55s  https://youtu.be/GZtp6PiFlTI?t=2s https://youtu.be/G4RjPtffZHI?t=2s

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#19 Stoffregen Motorsports

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 07:11 PM

Honestly? Ok, it was a high HP street car that I also used for track days. Not much dirt road action, but yes, it was in the dirt a few times at Sears Point. Hit a lot of curbs in the esses too.

But the tub was trashed.

Like I said earlier, it's not the only time I ever saw that.

A couple years ago I TIG stitch welded a 510 tub for a customer to help stiffen up the tub. I bet that helps for longevity too.

#20 hang_510

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:43 PM

I played Rally Car Driver on the washed out dirt roads behind our house in Rosarito Mexico, Speed bumps were a challenge not a deterrent, and got serious air... Did that for three years straight in my bone stock 68 and nothing worse for ware.

All the way to Bahia de los Angeles, over 1000 mi on that baja trip.
Seized a wheel bearing 2 days after I got home.

"I can spend time working on the Dattos, or wasting money at the strip club. You make the call." :D


I'll put on chain mail and a dirt bike tire jock strap and drive it!!!!!