Air Conditioning help...R12 to R134a adaptor or?

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I'd love to hear from Angels on this. After all the suggestions, ideas and potential pitfalls, what is her game plan?

[Angela]

I'd love to hear from Angels on this. After all the suggestions, ideas and potential pitfalls, what is her game plan?

 

 

Well, I've been quite busy bringing mental health to the people as we say but, I did read all the input here (MUCH APPRECIATED...I might add)...thank you ALL. I do want to do this "right" & hopefully only once. I have a lot to mull over & don't want to rush...despite it being really hot. My key priorities are not to do harm to my engine & keep the "stock" look of my car. I have seen a few systems from "Vintage Air" but I haven't done the homework on what I options I might have. I'd like to know if I can use the existing A/C unit facia, knobs, vents, controls, etc but upgrade the actual system that does all the work. That would be super sweet in my book. I really don't want some replica unit made for a Ford or Chevy just to have A/C. I'll convert an ice chest & do the home made version before I put something like that in my Datsun!

 

Input/advice is still welcome & thanks again to all who've put in their 2 cents.

[distributorguy]

Yes you can use an aftermarket compressor with the rest of your stock system, although you'll likely have to have a shop custom make the high pressure hoses to hook it all up.  

The fear of causing damage is silly.  The system is designed for your car.  Unless you have known problems with overheating, nothing will change.  

[Seeker > 620 KC]

I agree with DGuy on aftermarket engine compartment components working for you. Ideally, they already have an aftermarket compressor bracket and compressor kit that will bolt right in.

 

If your AC hangs below the dash, 90% chance it is aftermarket, but was made to look Datsun orig and fits with dash look and design. Can't blame you for wanting to keep it if it looks good and fits in. Change the 40 year old seals to the new ones (just as you would for synthetic oil to prevent leaks)  on the evaporator and spend the time to put in a new expansion valve so you don't have to go back in and do it, and use either freon.

 

Re: "The system is designed for your car." If your evaporator was mfg by Nissan that statement is correct. It was designed by a team of engineers and made specifically for the vehicle with longevity in mind.

 

If your existing unit is an aftermarket unit, that company is already out of business and the system was made in a hurry during a brand new booming AC market for the new "Import line" of little cars. The better aftermarket AC companies put their name on their units ie: ARA, the others did not. I got a tour of their Riverside sales location "back in the day."

 

The aftermarket AC companies were typically in business with the new plastic industry. Plastic was really new and big in the 60's and 70's, it was replacing the old bake-olite stuff. They simply took a very basic standard size evaporator (made by another company,) stamped out a plastic mold that fit the dash and stuffed the evaporator inside and hung it below the dash. They had to do this in order to keep up with the instantaneous demand for AC units for import cars. There was little vehicle application design considered by aftermarket companies for import car AC during the 70's.

 

I worked for a Datsun Dealer during that time installing AC. I saw and installed the complex, highly detailed and highly designed new Nissan units that worked well. I also saw and had to install the inferior crap units the dealers had to order from aftermarket suppliers to keep up with demand when they couldn't get the Nissan units and did not perform as well as the Nissan/Datsun units. New car buyers would not buy new cars if they couldn't get them with AC. Dealer chose to do this by default. They couldn't keep their dealer business open in hot desert cities otherwise.

 

Next time you're wandering thru a junk yard go take apart a below the dash evaporator and see how it's made. Then go find an in-dash unit and take it apart. They are worlds apart in quality and design.   

 

Vintage or another new AC mfgr might have a new option for a new unit to fit behind the dash with your existing fresh air vents with no unit hanging below that puts out more volume of cooled air. It is worth researching. The changes in technology are fabulous: from electric to electronic switches relays and such, rotary compressor design, new denser hose seals.  

 

This is how I weight up these decisions... If the vehicle is a short term keeper, a beater, or one of many toys and you can change vehicles like shoes when they break down... throw caution to the wind, charge the old unit, see how it works, deal with any issues as they arise, and use it till you sell it.

 

If the vehicle is a long term sentimental keeper, a sole DD, a real long distance driver (not a show toy,) or you want to make efforts to improve vehicle cooling... it's worth further research and caution.

 

Caution does not equal silly. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

[Angela]

There seems to be a lot of info & opinions here to consider. I will take a picture of my existing A/C unit & see what y'all think. I really like the idea of using the looks of the original unit but upgrading the innards to a more efficient system. I think of this endeavor as an investment in a car that I absolutely love & enjoy so it's worth every penny to me to do it right the 1st time & forget about it...no worries...just drive & enjoy. Since I dropped a different L16 with an A87 peanut head in about 2 years into owning it, I have only a limited memory for how the system ran beforehand. The original engine seemed anemic & lacked power. Previous owner thought it needed a valve job but who knows. I still have it & plan to rebuild it someday. Point being, all the original hoses were cut, compressor removed, etc & have been sitting for about 3 yrs now. I don't remember if it bogged down my original engine but I do still have all the parts & really want to find the best direction to go. I did find a source for R13 & the lubricating oil just in case (super easy find). All of you folks have been amazingly generous & helpful over the years with information that's helped me not to screw up my super stock, fairly clean little wagon. I truly appreciate your time/efforts in informing me along the way.

 

May the Dat-sun shine on you always :thumbup:

-Angela

[Draker]

Look forward to seeing your progress!

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I would think the best upgrade to an older system like that would be a smaller modern compressor. You'll have to find one with a V belt pulley (vs serpentine) and you'll have to figure out a mounting bracket, maybe a tensioner too.

 

Reasons for this upgrade? Efficiency and smooth running vs power robbing and vibrations.

 

These guys sell all types of compressors - http://www.restomodair.com/

[Charlie69]

if your ac compressor looks like this I would upgrade to a new Sanden type AC compressor.

 

 

This is a Sanden 508 V2

 

[Seeker > 620 KC]

Yes, get a rotary compressor for sure. Their new technology are far more efficient for cooling, take up less engine bay space, put far less load on your engine, are more quiet, and don't have the severe vibration issues the old square York piston type compressors did.

 

And... if putting a chrome compressor in your gently-used engine bay would be like "putting a dress on a pig" (like it would be for my old truck...)

 

They make a standard compressor case that is not chromed/polished and won't stand out as bad, and doesn't cost quite as much in case you don't have an unlimited budget like Charlie's photo example.

[Angela]

if your ac compressor looks like this I would upgrade to a new Sanden type AC compressor.

 

 

This is a Sanden 508 V2

 

 

Thanks for the pic Charlie,

 

I just moved the contents of my 5x10 storage unit to a new unit that's only 10 min away instead of 40 & is 9x9 so I have more room for Datsun stuff! Anyway, I was able to dig out my compressor & it looks very similar to the example you provided...it's very grungy & has some differences in the casting but that's what came in my wagon...

 

 

 

As far as the actual interior unit, it's the under dash kind that has "Datsun" stamped near the knobs to turn it on, etc.

 

 

So, if I got a new, more efficient compressor (non chrome 'cos my engine ain't THAT pretty) and then new hoses, etc. is that all I'd need?

[Seeker > 620 KC]

You'll need:

a new rotary compressor bracket that will mount in the same place the old one did.

A new rotary compressor with the correct oil for the Freon type you choose, input dye in mine with the oil

A new receiver/drier with threaded fittings

New o-ring seals for the freon type you're going to use. Change every one.

New hoses that utilize threaded nut ends with o-ring seals.(not hose barbs like the fittings on top of your compressor)

Freon to match above components

Rent a flush device from ORileys and flush out the condenser, or simply replace it if is powdery with corrosion

Test or replace the pressure switch on the receiver/drier

 

If you are changing Fremont types or not you should remove the inside vehicle below dash AC unit.

Also gen a new expansion valve from rock auto and install it with new hose end seals. Re wrap the expansion valve the AC sweat tape

Once all is installed draw a vacuum on the system and ensure it holds.

If so you can charge the system, you'll need AC gauges, Or let your AC guy do the inside car part, vacuum test, and charging and leak testing.

 

Be sure to keep all points of entry into the system while assembling very clean and dry.

I would reccomend consulting your AC guy before purchasing parts. Get recommendations about it first. Once he guides you on what to buy you could reduce his cost by doing the engine bay part yourself if you like engine bay work,

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Seeker, your information is very thorough and your responses are well thought out, but let me compartmentalize and translate a bit.

 

You'll need:
a new rotary compressor bracket that will mount in the same place the old one did. - Angela, this is not going to be an "off the shelf" part. Are you going to attempt to build this bracket yourself? or do you have a shop that can do it for you? You may be able to use your bracket as a jumping off point, but I wouldn't count on it.

A new rotary compressor with the correct oil for the Freon type you choose, input dye in mine with the oil - Purchase a unit that is common in the aftermarket, so you don't find yourself struggling to get hose adapters and such.

A new receiver/drier with threaded fittings
New o-ring seals for the freon type you're going to use. Change every one.
New hoses that utilize threaded nut ends with o-ring seals.(not hose barbs like the fittings on top of your compressor)
Freon to match above components
Test or replace the pressure switch on the receiver/drier - This is where I would employ the A/C repair shop. Have them handle all the hoses, connectors, adapters, o-rings, expansions valves, driers, electrical, system design and  functionality. It's likely that a lot of the parts you already have will need to be replaced, but don't let that scare you. The stuff is not expensive.

I would reccomend consulting your AC guy before purchasing parts. Get recommendations about it first. Once he guides you on what to buy you could reduce his cost by doing the engine bay part yourself if you like engine bay work, - Yes, Best advice so far. Consult the guy who's going to do the work before you make any purchases. Or better yet, let them figure it out.

 

All in, I bet the cost of the conversion is going to be in the $1200 to $2000 range, depending, of course, on variables which are constant to every custom job.

[Seeker > 620 KC]

Yes Stoff, that is exactly my point and the reason I outlined the steps briefly. To show how complex it will be to a person unfamiliar with AC and to hopefully motivate Angela to contact a modern/vintage AC tech for guidance first.

 

I bought a pair of modern compressor ear brackets for $40. They will have to be fabricated to a base plate to mount to the engine before a modern compressor can be installed. Fabrication is expensive, and you have to also consider how far forward and back to weld up so the V belt will alight with the drive pulley... not easy.

 

However, that company also makes mount kits for some cars. They did not have one for my 620 truck a v

Couple years back, but may now? but I have 79 L20B with a CA smog pump so it can't mount the compressor on the driver side like earlier 620b cars. it will have to go on the pass side.

 

. The L20B motor was used in a lot of diff vehicles and Angela'stated she has a 71 510 which orig had an L motor I believe. If the Vintage AC company has already designed a compressor mount for any L20b motor, she may be able to use that mounting bracket, or alter it to work if she has the clearance. She may have to eliminate her smog pump if she has one on that side, but I've seen it done in a Pick up. That would reduce that 1,200-2,000 figure dramatically that Stoff Is guesstimating. I'm sure he wants to make you aware of the full retail cost of having the pro do it all.

 

I've slowly done all the research and collected all the parts for my 620 this way over a couple of years except the compressor and hoses, and I don't have $200 in it SO FAR. But I take my time, do a lot of research, trade, know AC, and buy wisely and know where to get the parts I've collected cheap. But Stoff is right I will have my bigger expenses when I have to pay someone to weld for me, for the compressor, and for custom hoses at 25-50 per hose and will have the correct system valves, not adapters. His point is, a retail customer knowing nothing about it could pay that much. Kudos to him for making that very important point.

 

My point, do the research first. Lots of it. Think of it like hiring a contractor for your house... get 3 opinions / estimates from vintage AC guys. Tell em you're on a budget and want to do as much as you can to save $ if that is the case. If you're not familiar with auto AC and got the $2k discretionary income to have the pro do it and get it installed quickly, do it. That's what I'd do if I could afford it. It is cumbersome to learn and hard to get right In one's first attempts.

[Angela]

 

Yes Stoff, that is exactly my point and the reason I outlined the steps briefly. To show how complex it will be to a person unfamiliar with AC and to hopefully motivate Angela to contact a modern/vintage AC tech for guidance first.

 

I bought a pair of modern compressor ear brackets for $40. They will have to be fabricated to a base plate to mount to the engine before a modern compressor can be installed. Fabrication is expensive, and you have to also consider how far forward and back to weld up so the V belt will alight with the drive pulley... not easy.

 

However, that company also makes mount kits for some cars. They did not have one for my 620 truck a v

Couple years back, but may now? but I have 79 L20B with a CA smog pump so it can't mount the compressor on the driver side like earlier 620b cars. it will have to go on the pass side.

 

. The L20B motor was used in a lot of diff vehicles and Angela'stated she has a 71 510 which orig had an L motor I believe. If the Vintage AC company has already designed a compressor mount for any L20b motor, she may be able to use that mounting bracket, or alter it to work if she has the clearance. She may have to eliminate her smog pump if she has one on that side, but I've seen it done in a Pick up. That would reduce that 1,200-2,000 figure dramatically that Stoff Is guesstimating. I'm sure he wants to make you aware of the full retail cost of having the pro do it all.

 

I've slowly done all the research and collected all the parts for my 620 this way over a couple of years except the compressor and hoses, and I don't have $200 in it SO FAR. But I take my time, do a lot of research, trade, know AC, and buy wisely and know where to get the parts I've collected cheap. But Stoff is right I will have my bigger expenses when I have to pay someone to weld for me, for the compressor, and for custom hoses at 25-50 per hose and will have the correct system valves, not adapters. His point is, a retail customer knowing nothing about it could pay that much. Kudos to him for making that very important point.

 

My point, do the research first. Lots of it. Think of it like hiring a contractor for your house... get 3 opinions / estimates from vintage AC guys. Tell em you're on a budget and want to do as much as you can to save $ if that is the case. If you're not familiar with auto AC and got the $2k discretionary income to have the pro do it and get it installed quickly, do it. That's what I'd do if I could afford it. It is cumbersome to learn and hard to get right In one's first attempts.

 

 

Hello guys,

 

I read through your extensive posts & detailed information...to be honest, I was a bit too intimidated to respond right away. I absolutely get the point that this is a HUGE undertaking.  In a perfect 510 world I'd go out & drop a couple grand & let someone else worry about how to make it work the way I want it to work But sadly, that's not the case. The reality is, I am on a tight budget & I am pragmatic. As much as I'd love to have A/C this Summer, I think I'll just have to stick with the makeshift cooler/fan/ice cube device until I can educate myself, do the homework, keep collecting helpful input (thank you Seeker, Stoff & fellow Ratsuners) while I save up some money.

 

Originally, I'd hoped to just locate a source for the original freon that it was made to run on (which I did), replace a few hoses, check for leaks & get her going again. Uninformed Pipe Dreamer I was! I've been very patient in collecting parts, trading parts, researching & learning (or trying to) to get my wagon the way I want her to look. I'm a huge fan of stock original but with a little 70's flair (Shiny NOS Appliance rims, the 70's mud flaps & floor mats, etc.) It took me several years to realize the vision I had for my wagon. I am absolutely willing to exercise the same patience & seek the know-how & professional help I'll need to have my stock A/C unit facia, knobs, vents, etc just as they are currently...but have all the functioning innards be modern, efficient, easily serviced & hopefully as trouble-free as possible. I plan to consult with a few local shops & see what I can find out. We've got a few car shows coming up next month that I like to participate in so I'll ask for recommendations for shops that do good work when, eventually the time comes. I have a good buddy here where I live that is into 510's & is a mechanic. He's a busy guy but has fabricated some stuff for his 510 autocross racer, daily driver sedan & his wagon. I'm sure he can be of help once I decide which direction to go. I'd love to learn as I go & be able to say I had a hand in building/contributing to this project in more ways than just opening my wallet.

 

If anybody comes across any information, websites, etc they think would be helpful...please let me know.

 

Thanks again to all who took the time to respond & especially in such a detailed fashion...SUPER HELPFUL.

 

You guys are awesome :thumbup: 

-Angela

[Seeker > 620 KC]

I am so sorry if we intimidated you so much you were afraid to respond. That was never our intent. I think we all heard you and your health concern and got excited to help and protect. We're just concerned you don't put a lot of time, money, &/or frustration in it, and in the end aren't satisfied with the results, over pay, etc, etc.

 

My sister had a brand new 69 or 70 510 red wagon during college. Then she got married and had kids. Her aspiring lawyer husband footed the bill to add a below dash AC to it. She was happy with the cool air passing by her, but the kids in the back seat complained because the unit never dropped the cabin temp by much in the Riverside heat, and the blower didn't get any air flow to them.

 

I'd suggest seeking out 510 wagon owners specially that have working AC. Find out who's got the most modern set up, old or new, see how thy like it etc, etc. Gleen all the info & pics you can from their set-ups. I really like your idea of finding a guide friend who can help you with fabrication and AC installation too.

 

And by all means in the mean time, utilize your existing system if it will work better than your Ghetto 5000 ice box blower (is that the name Colour box gave it?) An AC shop that makes custom hosed could test your old hoses individually, &/or vac test the system before charging it, and gambling Freon of any kind. Or have your skilled mentor charge it they are familiar with AC.

 

At a minimum' change out as many seals as you can, and replace the receiver drier. once a receiver/drier is exposed to the air for a day or two they can't do their job any more, and will dramatically prevent the system from cooling.

 

If you attempt to use that York compressor you can gamble and install it as is, or get it checked out on a bench by someone familiar with them. You can still find common seals and bearings for it, I would be really surprised if the front shaft seal is good, the bearings maybe ok. But, remember someone removed some components for some faulty reason. Who would remove working AC on a stock wagon, eh? The compressors were usually removed by owners when the clutch &/or bearing seized up, the bearing went dry and started howling,, or the shaft seal went bad and leaked out all the Freon (dang spell check keeps replacing the word Freon with Fremont! Lol

 

Somewhere in this discussion i think you may have gotten the impression you could use your existing below dash unit and install new internal components? Sorry, I didn't mean to give you that idea if I did, but it doesn't mean it can't be done. I meant there may be a company who might make a modern unit that would either replace your existing below dash unit, or like the Nissan factory 620 condenser have a smaller blower unit hanging under the glove box, and utilize your existing side and center vents.

 

Replacing the internal components in your existing below dash unit would really be ambitious and a challenge to find modern parts that would fit exactly in their place, and in the same plastic housing. Not saying it can't be done, just think it would take even more time and $. It would be easier to install your old switch plate that says Datsun on it. on a new unit... IF the newer unit can still use the use olde style switch.

 

Brainstorming a mod...My thought would be to find a center console with arm rest that could run between the seats to run AC vent hose thru to transport cold air to the rear passengers. Ideally a 2nd evaporator unit to produce cold air would be most efficient, but you'd have to find one to A) fit the space, and B) match the interior without looking too modern.

 

I'll be at Eagle Rock Swap Meet if you attend and want to talk about making the old unit work, modifying it, or replacing it. I'm old and married, don't bite, am not a tech head by any means. Lol Sorry again if we scared you with all the possibilities.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Good and bad news. I'm glad that you are willing to upgrade to a modern system, but sad that you are going without A/C.  Don't go through the entire system, just replace what's missing or broken, charge it with R12 (which is certainly available). If you installed everything that you could and left the finish work up to the shop, I see ne reason you couldn't have this working for a few hundred bucks. You'll have A/C for the summer and next year, if you even still want to, you can upgrade the system.

 

For the record, the numbers I threw out there were based on roughly $250 for the compressor, $300-$400 for a custom bracket (who knows?), and $600 for shop labor to get it all together and working. That was the low estimate.

 

Good luck! Happy to help.

[hosestop@msn.com]

Late chime in , I have a couple L brackets and the right pump , the York compressor off road guys are using for air compressors ,thought they were junk .I also have a couple of those with brackets ,be sure to get belt type condenser not round tube .

[Angela]

Late chime in , I have a couple L brackets and the right pump , the York compressor off road guys are using for air compressors ,thought they were junk .I also have a couple of those with brackets ,be sure to get belt type condenser not round tube .

 

Thanks Hosetop. I think we've done some business before on eBay. Any chance you'll be going to the Eagle Rock meet next month?