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Air Conditioning help...R12 to R134a adaptor or?


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Hello all,

 

I tried to search for info on this topic but didn't find much. Hoping someone can help point me in the right direction.

 

I've got a '71 510 Wagon that came with A/C installed. We disconnected/cut hoses when I swapped in another L16 & I have the parts in storage. I live in Atascadero, CA where the temps have been in the mid 90's and even up to 106*

 

So, long story short, I'm sticking to my new vinyl seats & I need to reinstall the AC...ASAP!

 

I've been told I'd need an adapter kit but read here on the forum a comment about the kits being "cheap" fixes & how it should be "done right". Not a whole lot of details to follow.

 

My AC unit is the long one that runs the length of the dash basically. It blew air before disconnected, but don't remember if it was particularly cold. Either way, I know the old refrigerant has been DC'd & I have to convert it.

 

What's the best way to approach this & "do it right"?

 

Any & all help, tips, advice, or website links would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

:sweat:

 

-Angela

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Hi Angela,

The part you describe is the "condenser and fan" assembly.  That is 1/3 of the system.  Do you still have the "evaporator" that looks kind of like a radiator that sets in front of the actual radiator?  What about the "compressor"?  And the related hoses, dryer, etc.?

 

In 1971, the AC kits for our Datsuns were all aftermarket and based on a York compressor, the same as used on big GM V8s.  When they turned on, you felt like somebody put the car in reverse suddenly.  They broke the mounting brackets routinely. Later, probably 1980 or so, Datsuns began to have factory AC based on Senko or Yenko compressors that took less power and were more efficient.  Modern compressors are even more efficient.

 

If you still have the compressor, post a pic of it and somebody will tell you what you have. 

 

dgi

 

m1400013_diagram-right.jpg

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Hello all,

 

I tried to search for info on this topic but didn't find much. Hoping someone can help point me in the right direction.

 

I've got a '71 510 Wagon that came with A/C installed. We disconnected/cut hoses when I swapped in another L16 & I have the parts in storage. I live in Atascadero, CA where the temps have been in the mid 90's and even up to 106*

 

So, long story short, I'm sticking to my new vinyl seats & I need to reinstall the AC...ASAP!

 

I've been told I'd need an adapter kit but read here on the forum a comment about the kits being "cheap" fixes & how it should be "done right". Not a whole lot of details to follow.

 

My AC unit is the long one that runs the length of the dash basically. It blew air before disconnected, but don't remember if it was particularly cold. Either way, I know the old refrigerant has been DC'd & I have to convert it.

 

What's the best way to approach this & "do it right"?

 

Any & all help, tips, advice, or website links would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

:sweat:

 

-Angela

 

As you have indicated, your unit was designed to run on R12 Freon.  It is still available on a limited {as in reclaimed] basis and is very expensive on a can to can basis.  $30 plus cans as of the last very last time long ago that I checked.  Fortunately I had squirled away a small stash many years ago [i had a Freon powered BB gun] and had no immediate concerns.  The "modern" refrigerant replacement does not have the thermal efficiency of the old Freon.  If you simply drain, recycle, and recharge with the modern non CFC replacement you will see a diminished cooling effect.  Your choices are either to find an air conditioning shop that has a stash of original R2 or recycled R2, or deep into your pocket and retrofit a new compressor, heat exchanger and condenser to meet the thermal capacity of the "modern" refrigerant.  European cars get around this by using Butane as the refrigerant, but you don't want to get into a front end wreck with your engine compartment filled with escaping Butane!

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For about $100 you can buy a vacuum pump and gauge set to pull a vacuum on your system, removing 100% of the remaining R12.  Then you can install the adapter and fill it with R134a.  You should be able to find a few YouTube videos on the process.  

 

Prior to that, just make sure there are no leaks, its wired properly, and you have a belt that doesn't slip.  

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As you have indicated, your unit was designed to run on R12 Freon.  It is still available on a limited {as in reclaimed] basis and is very expensive on a can to can basis.  $30 plus cans as of the last very last time long ago that I checked.  Fortunately I had squirled away a small stash many years ago [i had a Freon powered BB gun] and had no immediate concerns.  The "modern" refrigerant replacement does not have the thermal efficiency of the old Freon.  If you simply drain, recycle, and recharge with the modern non CFC replacement you will see a diminished cooling effect.  Your choices are either to find an air conditioning shop that has a stash of original R2 or recycled R2, or deep into your pocket and retrofit a new compressor, heat exchanger and condenser to meet the thermal capacity of the "modern" refrigerant.  European cars get around this by using Butane as the refrigerant, but you don't want to get into a front end wreck with your engine compartment filled with escaping Butane!

For about $100 you can buy a vacuum pump and gauge set to pull a vacuum on your system, removing 100% of the remaining R12.  Then you can install the adapter and fill it with R134a.  You should be able to find a few YouTube videos on the process.  

 

Prior to that, just make sure there are no leaks, its wired properly, and you have a belt that doesn't slip.  

 

The old Mercedes guys refill with propane for R12, same efficiency and stupid cheap, also compatible with the older oils and hoses and not sensitive to moisture issues. Many writeups on how to do this online. They literally use a lantern/torch style bottle and an adapter. For instance such threads as these discuss this and the legal aspects:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126-s-se-sec-sel-sd/1387442-using-propane-instead-r-12-c.html

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/tech-help/254928-ac-propane-staying-alive.html

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/propane-as-r-12-replacement.856456/

 

Caveat: Not so legal in this country in a straightforward manner, howerver, hydrocarbon refrigerants can be done and are sold. The physics of it work very well. Having a flammable gas in you engine compartment is not a real issue, you know compared to the gas line etc.. this is just straight up FUD. Will wreck R12 recovery equipment though.

 

R134a is not as efficient as R12 and requires barrier hoses and a bigger condenser to work well. You will need to replace the drier either way, these are generic and cheap though.

 

Best bet for cooling is to repair and replace with R12, you just will pay for it, but the system is made to use it. 

 

Flush the lines etc. using good quality flush. 

 

Use a synthetic oil, which is multi-refrigerant compatible and make sure you use the correct amount for the compressor.

 

Replace all the seals while you have everything apart and the belts too.

 

Rent the pumps and gauges, Autozone and O'Reilly both rent the pump for free with deposit. Buy new pump oil and change it out before you pull a vacuum.

  • Like 2
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The old Mercedes guys refill with propane for R12, same efficiency and stupid cheap, also compatible with the older oils and hoses and not sensitive to moisture issues. Many writeups on how to do this online. They literally use a lantern/torch style bottle and an adapter. For instance such threads as these discuss this and the legal aspects:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126-s-se-sec-sel-sd/1387442-using-propane-instead-r-12-c.html

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/tech-help/254928-ac-propane-staying-alive.html

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/propane-as-r-12-replacement.856456/

 

Caveat: Not so legal in this country in a straightforward manner, howerver, hydrocarbon refrigerants can be done and are sold. The physics of it work very well. Having a flammable gas in you engine compartment is not a real issue, you know compared to the gas line etc.. this is just straight up FUD. Will wreck R12 recovery equipment though.

 

R134a is not as efficient as R12 and requires barrier hoses and a bigger condenser to work well. You will need to replace the drier either way, these are generic and cheap though.

 

Best bet for cooling is to repair and replace with R12, you just will pay for it, but the system is made to use it. 

 

Flush the lines etc. using good quality flush. 

 

Use a synthetic oil, which is multi-refrigerant compatible and make sure you use the correct amount for the compressor.

 

Replace all the seals while you have everything apart and the belts too.

 

Rent the pumps and gauges, Autozone and O'Reilly both rent the pump for free with deposit. Buy new pump oil and change it out before you pull a vacuum.

 

 

Thanks for the very useful information. I really just want to find a source for the R12. If I have to invest...well, it's worth it to me. I am not a prima donna, sissy la la who can't handle a little heat.I actually love the sun & heat. It's just that I have Multiple Sclerosis & the heat just really does a number on my symptoms...it's awful sometimes but usually no one could tell I have it just from appearances. For now, I've rigged up one of those styrofoam  ice chest "air conditioning units" & am buying a bunch of ice whenever I need to run it. Not ideal, but cheap & tolerable until somehow I can find some R12. Being in California probably reduces my chances greatly with all the laws/restrictions on everything. If anyone out there has a lead...please PM me or post here.

 

I really do appreciate it.

 

-Angela

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Also you can buy it all day on ebay. Might need a cert to get it. Just talk to an ac shop. Or take the test. It's a bit of a joke. I'm certified. Or was.. not sure if you need to refresh it. That was like 8 years ago.

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I have an A/C shop that I use for all my builds. If your system doesn't need a ton of parts, you'd be surprised how cheaply this can be done. If you want to have them recharge the R12, it would probably be a couple hundred bucks. If you wanted to convert it to R134 (again, depending on the parts) it could be similar money.

 

If you want to get the system running before this heat wave is over, I'd bite the bullet and bring it to a shop.

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The evaporator is the part inside the car with the blower fan and expansion valve.

 

The condenser is the part in front of the radiator and rad fan. 

 

There are still AC guys in CA who can sell and recharge R12, and it is legal, it just takes special training and certs. Most AC techs don't want to deal with R12 as the gas is costly, they don't want to spend the time on the old style training, certs, and maintaining the old equipment. Nor do they want to spend the time on old grungy vehicles But there are specialty guys/ hungry guys out out there. Tip: Ask the guys who have WORKING AC in the really pretty completed pristine cars at car meets. Unfortunately, AC guys are specialists like plumbers and good ones are always busy. It is now a really hot, these guys are in prime season, and their time is in demand and not cheap right now. The time to find a patient tech who has/might take the time to help you firgure out an old vehicle application, on a budget like me.. is when business is slower and possibly more affordable... winter or fall. 

 

Your're dealing with a 30-50 year old system and the AC system has traditionally always been technical, often tricky, and expensive. 

 

You don't want to risk installing your hard to find expensive R12 on old "original" hoses, seals, driers, leaky condnesers, etc. Do it once. (For AC I like to think "measure twice, cut once." or research a lot, do it once.) 

 

Once you've sourced the main evaporator component and have fitted it for inside the car (it will have to be removed again, but you'll want to be sure where it goes first and route everything around it) , go consult your trusted vintage AC installer, have him look at it, test it, etc.Or go there before finding an evaporator.  He/she can advise you if there are newer/ more effecient evaporators compressors and installation brackets, condensers, freons, and driers are available.

 

Use new new hoses, custom ones are absolutely great as long as they are crimped and tested, and don't use barbed fittings with hose clamps. Those have always been problematic and leak sooner or later. Use new seals. The o-rings for the newer gasses seal better than the old neoprene because they are denser rubber and the newer gasses have smaller molecules. 

 

I come from the Datsun dealer automotive AC world in the 70's and have watched the AC business over the years. I have two old Datsuns and live in HOT So Cal, and both vehicles have small cabin space. The more modern 80 200sx I'm going to try and salvage the old system with new seals, resealed Hitachi compressor, new drier, and new condenser and use the orig R12. For the 79 620 I want to fab a new compressor bracket and use the new rotary compressor and new freon.

 

For a small  pickup cab or larger hatchback the cabin space is small and either gas will work well for cooling it. The system will cool the pickup easier than the larger hatchback with more windows. An AC unit will work much harder to cool a larger space like a wagon with more cabin space and hot window surfaces.  Most modern SUV's (station wagons) need a back evaporator unit to cool the back end of the vehicle.

 

If I had health issues and need AC to help control  my symptoms, and I had a wagon I would want to consult a current AC professional to see what new applications works more effectively and long term today, in order to cool my larger vehicle space before spending a lot of money on old parts, old technology, gambling and guessing and spending 2 or 3 times the money on building a system with trial and error. 

 

At my age and health I know budget, time, $ and mechanical ability all play into how to resolve these issues, especially if time is a factor. I've learned sometimes spending some money with a real pro is the more expedient way to a quicker resolution.

 

What city in CA are you in Angela? I think Robert who runs the IE meet used a guy in Chino or near there for R12. For the most part he was happy with the guys ability. he just didn't like the way he routed a custom hose or two.

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Oh! And a big WARNING before you get all excited to install AC in your tired,  decades old Datsun... Please don't add AC to a tired Datto with a weak cooling system and kill your engine. That would break my heart :(

 

Be sure you have GOOD ENGINE COMPRESSION and an EXCELLENT COOLING SYSTEM. These tiny little cars barely had 4-5 quarts of coolant in them. Adding AC to one in the 70's utilizing a big vibration pounding York compressor really overburdened them when they were new. Now there are more efficient cooling rotary compressors that don't load up the engine as bad. 

 

Before adding AC be sure every part of your engine cooling system is in 100% good working condition. AC killed more Datsun engines in the 70's and 80's due to running AC all the time, at stop lights, in traffic, pulling grades and such with poorly maintained cooling systems.

 

 

If you have good compression (and hopefully a good head gasket?) ensure the following:

 

New fan clutch water pump or stellar operating elect fan system and sending unit

A correct multi-blade fan

Radiator fan shroud

A clean pressure-tested radiator

Clean pressure-tested heater core (you'll need all the coolant you can get in your little cooling system)

Clean and good operating heater control valve

A flushed and back flushed cooling system with the thermostat removed

A new or excellent condition thermostat

New Heater hoses and non-eroded fittings

Ensure all coolant carrying small coolant hoses are new or in fantastic shape. Don't risk an old hose!

New upper and lower radiator hoses. If they have oil on them or they are swollen... toss em out.

A new or excellent condition radiator cap

I highly reccommend replacing all the the freeze plugs, I've rarely seen a good condition steel freeze plug after 40 years.

New coolant.

 

If you have a new motor, just ensure you did all the above and you're good to go!

 

Stay cool in your new AC, or travel early AM and Eves like I currently have to without AC

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I have had customers come to me asking for A/C installs in small displacement vintage cars and trucks and I have been lucky enough to avoid getting suckered into doing them. But, there is a standalone system I have seen available that uses an electric motor to power the compressor that I would love to try. You can mount it just about anywhere and I'm sure, with a lot of effort, it could be disassembled and rebuilt in any configuration you need (to fit in awkward places).

 

If money were no object, installing a completely new system in a vintage car would be a fun challenge. I would try to use the most modern and compact compressor available, the largest condensor that fits, and under dash components from Vintage Air or one of the other hotrod guys. It's not rocket science, but the fabrication to build a modern system that was well hidden would run into the thousands of dollars category.

 

For what Angela wants (she lives in Atascadero), and considering that her car was originally equipped with a dealer installed unit, repairing the original system would be the best way to go for now. Deal with the fallout later.

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The evaporator is the part inside the car with the blower fan and expansion valve.

 

The condenser is the part in front of the radiator and rad fan. 

 

There are still AC guys in CA who can sell and recharge R12, and it is legal, it just takes special training and certs. Most AC techs don't want to deal with R12 as the gas is costly, they don't want to spend the time on the old style training, certs, and maintaining the old equipment. Nor do they want to spend the time on old grungy vehicles But there are specialty guys/ hungry guys out out there. Tip: Ask the guys who have WORKING AC in the really pretty completed pristine cars at car meets. Unfortunately, AC guys are specialists like plumbers and good ones are always busy. It is now a really hot, these guys are in prime season, and their time is in demand and not cheap right now. The time to find a patient tech who has/might take the time to help you firgure out an old vehicle application, on a budget like me.. is when business is slower and possibly more affordable... winter or fall. 

 

Your're dealing with a 30-50 year old system and the AC system has traditionally always been technical, often tricky, and expensive. 

 

You don't want to risk installing your hard to find expensive R12 on old "original" hoses, seals, driers, leaky condnesers, etc. Do it once. (For AC I like to think "measure twice, cut once." or research a lot, do it once.) 

 

Once you've sourced the main evaporator component and have fitted it for inside the car (it will have to be removed again, but you'll want to be sure where it goes first and route everything around it) , go consult your trusted vintage AC installer, have him look at it, test it, etc.Or go there before finding an evaporator.  He/she can advise you if there are newer/ more effecient evaporators compressors and installation brackets, condensers, freons, and driers are available.

 

Use new new hoses, custom ones are absolutely great as long as they are crimped and tested, and don't use barbed fittings with hose clamps. Those have always been problematic and leak sooner or later. Use new seals. The o-rings for the newer gasses seal better than the old neoprene because they are denser rubber and the newer gasses have smaller molecules. 

 

I come from the Datsun dealer automotive AC world in the 70's and have watched the AC business over the years. I have two old Datsuns and live in HOT So Cal, and both vehicles have small cabin space. The more modern 80 200sx I'm going to try and salvage the old system with new seals, resealed Hitachi compressor, new drier, and new condenser and use the orig R12. For the 79 620 I want to fab a new compressor bracket and use the new rotary compressor and new freon.

 

For a small  pickup cab or larger hatchback the cabin space is small and either gas will work well for cooling it. The system will cool the pickup easier than the larger hatchback with more windows. An AC unit will work much harder to cool a larger space like a wagon with more cabin space and hot window surfaces.  Most modern SUV's (station wagons) need a back evaporator unit to cool the back end of the vehicle.

 

If I had health issues and need AC to help control  my symptoms, and I had a wagon I would want to consult a current AC professional to see what new applications works more effectively and long term today, in order to cool my larger vehicle space before spending a lot of money on old parts, old technology, gambling and guessing and spending 2 or 3 times the money on building a system with trial and error. 

 

At my age and health I know budget, time, $ and mechanical ability all play into how to resolve these issues, especially if time is a factor. I've learned sometimes spending some money with a real pro is the more expedient way to a quicker resolution.

 

What city in CA are you in Angela? I think Robert who runs the IE meet used a guy in Chino or near there for R12. For the most part he was happy with the guys ability. he just didn't like the way he routed a custom hose or two.

 

 

I'm located in Central California...Atascadero (San Luis Obispo County). Thanks so much for taking the time to post such useful input & information!

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I've put A/C in some horrible cars to work on.  I hope I never do it again.  On the other hand, some like your Datsun are easy.  Generally speaking I add dye and fill the system with Nitrogen (inert) to pressurize it and look for leaks.  Fix them, then pull a vacuum and change over to 134a because its SO much cheaper, and R12 may not be available next time you need it.  Of course if you're daring you can use propane.  It has the same boiling point and was the original freon!!!  (Please don't!!!)

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I like Stoff's take on the problem, although I don't know if I agree with the ultra micro format, or the need to use the largest condenser. My 620 doesn't have a very big hole for the radiator alone, if you completely cover the opening with condenser...it's kinda counter productive to an already micro cooling system. I'm sure he must be brainstorming some new approach.

 

The problem with simply installing 134a in an old R12 system is the smaller molecule gas leaks past the old seals if the seals aren't swapped out beforehand.

 

 Against my own advice I am going to gamble on Dizzyguy's advice on my 200sx. Already went thru the cooling system, brakes, and suspension.

 

My 200SX only had 76k miles on it, owned by an old couple and was always garaged. AC hoses look ok as does the evaporator. I bought a kit of the newer o-ring seals from Rock Auto and swapped them all out on my SX. Found a resealed compressor online from Four Seasons, Have a new expansion valve, and a new drier. Have most of it installed and filled the compressor with the black light dye. Just haven't had the health to finish it off. Need to install the compressor, then draw a vacuum (still have a pump from my installer days) to see if the system has a leak BEFORE wasting any of the 6 cans of R-12 I found in a dumpster. Someone threw them out??? WOO HOO! If the vacuum draw down holds, then and only then will I shoot any Freon into the system and check for leaks with the glasses and black light. I will double check it with a Freon sniffer machine from "back in the day" that still works.

 

For my 620 I'll be taking the "flat head" motor approach from Stoff's photo. I'll be installing a new compressor and fabbed mount, new hoses, and a new drier and condenser. As long as the flat-head guy's  head gasket and cooling system hold up, he'll be good.

 

The reason I adivse to check the health of the cooling system before AC...I don't like surprise break downs, diving from the fast lane in heavy traffic to get to the slow side of the freeway, missed events, taking time off from work to service/tow a vehicle, rebuilding motors before their time,  or paying AAA out of pocket when I've used up my freebies. I'm returning my datto to a dependable long range fun time driver, what it was designed for. That's why I service the suspension and fluid systems, maintain brakes, and keep my wipers :thumbup:

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The worst case scenario with a weak cooling system is that you have to shut off the A/C or turn the temp up a bit to maintain cooling.  A large Condenser core will not cause a hot radiator.  In fact the larger the condenser core, the lower the average temp rise across the radiator and the less the system will have to run to maintain the temp you desire.  I once ran a Town & Country evaporator in an MG sedan (a sedan but tiny interior).  It worked beautifully and I was able to maintain an average of 92 mph across most of Nebraska with a normal temp engine.  

 

R134a isn't really any more likely to leak than R12.  Its usually something big that causes a leak.  I made the swap in our Cutlass last fall with no O-ring changes.  It made it through the winter with no freon loss, despite numerous freeze/thaw cycles that can easily cause leaks.  Its not that big a deal.  No different than putting air in your tires instead of nitrogen, and who does that???

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The worst case scenario with a weak cooling system is that you have to shut off the A/C or turn the temp up a bit to maintain cooling.  A large Condenser core will not cause a hot radiator.  In fact the larger the condenser core, the lower the average temp rise across the radiator and the less the system will have to run to maintain the temp you desire.  I once ran a Town & Country evaporator in an MG sedan (a sedan but tiny interior).  It worked beautifully and I was able to maintain an average of 92 mph across most of Nebraska with a normal temp engine.  

 

R134a isn't really any more likely to leak than R12.  Its usually something big that causes a leak.  I made the swap in our Cutlass last fall with no O-ring changes.  It made it through the winter with no freon loss, despite numerous freeze/thaw cycles that can easily cause leaks.  Its not that big a deal.  No different than putting air in your tires instead of nitrogen, and who does that???

The point I was making is 620's have a small capacity of coolant, and many trucks have two row rads, Add 20-40 years of corrosion, a weak head gasket and uncheckedcooling system parts... I would not risk my motor in that condition by adding a condenser as big as the radiator which could easily reduce the air flow. Nor would I recommend someone else do it with a 100k on a tired motor. If the motor and cooling system were all spanky new I'd be more open to completely blocking off a rad face with a modern condenser.

 

How does turning up the temp on an AC system maintain cooling??? If the engine begins to run hot after turning on the AC you can turn on the heater to route hot coolant thru the heater core for more heat dissipation than the rad and fan are doing, and/or you can turn off the AC compressor to reduce engine load, but turning up the temp on an orig 620 AC that leaves the compressor turning ... does nothing to help the cooling system. The compressor either is on or off, and rarely cycles off for long in hot

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"What's the best way to approach this & "do it right"?

 

Any & all help, tips, advice, or website links would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

Angela"

 

Yes, sorry Dizzyguy and Angela, we (I) did go a bit too in depth. But she did say she wanted to do it rightt, which I took to mean as dealing with it once. And she did welcome all input.

 

The basic point I was making... don't risk killing a tired 40 year old motor by quickly re-installing AC. Check the cooling system first!

 

I installed AC for a dealer in the 70's and I know most of the under dash AC units were NOT made by Nissan, and were aftermarket USA units sold by dealers as "factory units." Even though the have the raised letters that say "Datsun" on the switchplate. (To check, for yourself...look at the squirrel cage fan and see if it says "Made in Ohio.")

 

Most of these units when working properly were not effective cooling large compartment vehicles like a wagon. It took a long time driving to reduce the interior temp by much at all. Angela stated she didn't recall the unit cooling well when it was installed. This could have been due to a loss of Fremont, or it could have been fully charged. We don't know.

 

The second point I was trying to make is Angela to consult a modern/vintage AC installallation tech before spending a lot of money on the old system...to see if there are newer more effective AC systems made today to better keep her health condition stable.

 

My apologies for being too verbose.

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