Datsun B210 sc14 supercharger application

[Dguy210]

Except...

 

Every B-chassis car made (1200, B210, B310) had staked in u-joints. They cannot be changed.

 

The 510, 240Z, and 620 used replaceable u-joints. It is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better to start with one of those.

Which is why I was running a 510 driveshaft on my B210 and know they fit.

[Tom1200]

A couple of things:

 

To clarify on A-series drive shafts, yes autos are non serviceable but manuals have replaceable U-joints.

 

While supercharger set ups are on A-series are well documented, 200 hp would be a pretty lofty goal, when the most sorted turbo race cars in the world is making a shade more than that at the wheels. The car also has some serious drivetrain upgrades.

 

The 510 rear axle may require Fwd style wheels if you don't won't to roll the guards. I use one in my 1200, it's 3" wider than 1200s H145 so it's probably the same for B210

 

While dropping in an L-series is a good fit it, getting another 20hp out of an A-series isn't to hard. A moderate cam, weber 32/36, exhaust system and cleaning up the ports in the head would do it.

 

The valves seats protrude into the port about 1mm, so filing or grinding the seat flush with the port wall opens it up by 2mm. (I did this work with a dremel on my car) Additionally if you order valves from SI the stems are narrowed at the neck so they flow more and don't require the valve guides to be changed.

 

Delta cams does regrinds for something like $75-100.

 

Isky still sells the double valve springs, you'll need the retainers for the double springs, they are not an absolute but the motor will be a little better if you can rev it to 7200.

 

Using the the GX head gasket will up the compression half a point or so, it's .8 versus the 1.2 of a standard gasket.

 

Bike carbs are an excellent upgrade; I have the Keihins on my car but those are not cheap. I'd use a set of Yamaha FZR1000 carbs as those will clear the master cylinder (downdraft at 45 degree angle). You need a custom intake manifold and that's a bit of a hurdle.

 

If you have a 5 speed in your car see if you can find a 4.11 ring and pinion that will help as well.

 

In streetable trim with a 32/36 carb I'd expect around 75-80 whp, and 7-8 more with bike carbs.

 

So with all of the above said do the suspension and brakes first; add a set of anti-sway bars, lower the car 1-1.5 inches, some decent dampers/shocks and a set of 185/60-13 tires. Check Datsun1200.com there is a thread about brake upgrades using standard Datsun stuff that bolts on. Add some seats out of a Z car or the like to hold you in place.

 

If you shop parts used and or pic and pulls you can do all of this pretty cheap. Based on what's been available of late I think I could do most of the above for about $1200-$1500 maybe less if you find some killer deals. The key is waiting for the deals to come along, it could take 10-12 months.

 

Finally for comparison I'll leave you this; my car has an A15 putting out 105whp (soon to be slightly more), 280ZX coil overs brakes, 4.38 LSD, close ratio gearbox, Koni dampers, motorsport rear springs, not a single rubber bushing anywhere, the cage to stiffen if up and after all that I'm turning lap times that are 8-9 seconds slower than I do in a friend's Miata prepped to a similar degree. Basically don't expect the car to keep up with competently driven modern cars. When I do run track days, I'll routinely pass Vettes and Porshces but that has more to with my driving than the car. In its current trim I've got $8000 in my car

 

I love the 1200s & 210s because they are a few hundred pounds lighter than most other cars, you,should be able to build a car that's an absolute scream to drive on twisty roads. I'd have one for the street if we didn't already have 6 cars (2 of them race cars) and 3 motorcycles.

[roadkill2525]

Which is why I was running a 510 driveshaft on my B210 and know they fit.

 

I got a '78 GX with the 5sp and its non-serviceable, picked up a new one with serviceable u-joints from Drive Line Services of Sacramento.

[Tom1200]

Interesting; I have a 210 5 speed driveshaft and a 1200 4 speed with the press-in u joints. The one in my car now 60 series trans H190 I got from Dave Patten is custom length so not sure what parts are mixed and matched on that one.

[datsunfreak]

Interesting; I have a 210 5 speed driveshaft and a 1200 4 speed with the press-in u joints. 

 

Someone built that. Stock they are all non-serviceable. 

[datsunfreak]

While dropping in an L-series is a good fit it, getting another 20hp out of an A-series isn't to hard. A moderate cam, weber 32/36, exhaust system and cleaning up the ports in the head would do it.

 

Yeah, but if you did all those mods to the L20b...    ^_^

 

Don't get me wrong, I love hot rod A14/A15 motors. In a 1200. B)

 

The B210 is just too heavy for it in my opinion...

 

 

But I'm tired of trying to build "fast" Datsuns. They don't need to be fast to be fun. 

[spdcrazy]

I am all about supercharging, boosting, etc. However, I strongly feel you should have a solid, and fun to drive engine/chassis first,

 

Adding boost should be an "addition" to the driving experience, not mandatory to get the car to the excitement level you want.

 

of course this is just my opinion. I'm working on SCing my L20b in my 521. its a blast to drive now with the headwork, 5spd, weber, etc. but I like the challenge of doing something a bit out of the norm.

[Tom1200]

@Datsunfreak agreed on trying to make Datsuns fast, hence my noting the lap times versus Miata, it's tough to beat modern technology. By comparison my Outback is considered underpowered yet the 1/4 mile time is the same as a stock 240Z. B210s aren't that porkey at 1800lbs, really only 200lbs heavier than 1200. Yes starting with the L20 obviously gives you a 15hp head start but it will also add 125-150lbs to the car. There are really no wrong answers; pull some weight out of the car and mod the A14 or for a small increase in wieght get a decent power increase. The car did come with the L Series engines in other markets.

 

With all that said I'm also OK with plopping a 2.0+ turbo in the car; you just need to be cognizant of the pluses and minuses.

 

I also tend to put the emphasis on the chassis as I have motorcycles and the Formula 500 if I want power.

[datzenmike]

My '76 B was a manual 4 speed and the U joints were staked in and not replaceable. Not without a machine shop anyway.

[datsunfreak]

Yes starting with the L20 obviously gives you a 15hp head start but it will also add 125-150lbs to the car

 

I'm not talking about horsepower. And stock for stock the L20b is rated about 25-30hp more, not 15. 

 

I'm talking about torque. The L20b makes almost 50% more torque than an A14. 

[Tom1200]

I should clarify on the 15hp I stated; L20 quoted outputs were between 97 & 105 where as most A14 engines were 80. Additionally from the dynoe sheets I've seen over the years the gap is closer to 15 then it is 30. This could have more to do with the individual cars; A14 cars being a bit less abused than L20 motor cars, pure speculation on my part based on the dozen or so dyno sheets I've seen.

 

You are absolutely spot on about the difference in torque. The L20 would be more real work friendly than the A14. One of the most common things that gets overlooked on these engine build discussions is the stock Datsun ratios are not friendly to motors with narrow power bands, most of them have a huge 2nd-3rd gap. Oddly enough the ZX box has better ratios than the A series boxes, when it's the A powered cars that really need the closer ratios.

 

There also seems to be an anomaly between the A-series motors and L-series; on moderate builds (2 barrel weber, cleaned up ports, mild cam) the A14/15s seem to gain more than L series. Not uncommon to see streetable A14/15 in the 85-95 whp range vs 95-105 for L18 L20. Contrast that with the best race A15s are 150ish but race L18 L20 motors are making 175-200. I'm sure it has to do with the smaller bores in the A-Series will limit the valve size.

 

(Note there was NA A15 build that belted out 200hp but it needed a rebuild after ever race)

[datzenmike]

 

. Yes starting with the L20 obviously gives you a 15hp head start but it will also add 125-150lbs to the car.

The L20B is about 280 pounds. I don't know what a good A series is but it would be more than 130 pounds? Are you including a larger rad and a larger/stronger transmission?

[datsunfreak]

 

 

The L20B is about 280 pounds. I don't know what a good A series is but it would be more than 130 pounds? Are you including a larger rad and a larger/stronger transmission?

 

Fully dressed L20b is closer to 300-305 (in my experience). A fully dressed (and comparably equipped) A14/A15 is around 175-180. 

 

You're going to need a bigger radiator regardless of engine size if you're modifying it, so that should be a wash. 

 

I personally have a 63A trans behind my A15, and the L-series 63A is identical in weight, so that could be a wash. 

 

Difference in flywheel and clutch could be a few pounds, but eat a salad once a week and you'll be fine...    ^_^

 

 

I stand by my original inference. Add 100-130 pounds, but add 30-40 foot pounds of torque. Worthwhile trade in my opinion.

[Tom1200]

I weighed my A12 and A15 complete with everything; 14lb flywheel clutch pressure plate oil etc less starter. The starter is 12lbs.

The A12 was 172lbs, the A15 was 183lbs. So with starter 184 & 195. Note the flatslide carbs and manifold are extremely light so you may have to add another 5lbs if equipped DGEV style downdraft.

 

A 60 series 5 speed is 54lbs versus 75-80lbs (I think) for 63 or 71 series. 56 series box is 38lbs but using one is rolling the dice.

 

The rear end would need to be upgraded for the L series. Can't remember but I thought B210s use H150. I'd want to upgrade. If you get an H165 or H190 with the alloy housing then the wieght would be a wash.

 

So if we use the largest gap possible 160lbs max difference. This is probably equivalent to 6hp and maybe 10ft/lbs of torque. So even factoring on the low side, L20 would be 15hp and 25ft/lbs of torque at a minimum so realistically the L series is the way to go in a street car.

 

If you are willing to give up the extra power because you like the handling bonus the lighter weight brings then I'd stick with the A series.

 

Now as this thread was about super charging an A14 I'd have to agree on an L20. I've said that if I switch to my Formula 500 car for vintage racing that I'd swap the 1200 to an L-series as I wouldn't have to worry about class rules.

[datsunfreak]

The rear end would need to be upgraded for the L series. Can't remember but I thought B210s use H150. I'd want to upgrade. If you get an H165 or H190 with the alloy housing then the wieght would be a wash.

 

For what it's worth, we've run the stock B210 diff behind both an L18 and a Z20s, both times beating the shit out of it it with zero problems. 

 

That was in a lighter weight 1200 though...

[Cosmonaut]

^^Wow is the rear end one heavy setup. I should of weighed it while I had it off. Would not be surprised if it is large percentage of the full weight.