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Datsun B210 sc14 supercharger application


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#1 ColdSaus

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 12:04 PM

Hey Ratsun,

Iv'e done a bit of research on suspension swaps and upgrades for the b210, and I have a basic idea for a little canyon carver squared away. The next obstacle to tackle is power, and the a14 surely doesn't make it easy. My original hp goal for a b210 was 200 hp to the wheels; if not the crank. upon further inspection, it seems as if the only a14s making 200 horses have ported heads, forged internals, EFI, etc and are basically race engines. I wanted to ultimately supercharge the a14 but it seemed that there would be no real way to do it reliably. I've looked into at least forged pistons as well as connecting rods, and with this summer coming up, iv'e gotten an opportunity to gain the experience to possibly install them myself; along with a supercharger. the problem is, I want to maintain reliability (somewhat) and still make power. it sounds contradictory, but i have an idea that might make it possble.

 

1. The supercharger

 on my search for a supercharger capable of boost for smaller engines, i came across a topic based on the possibility of the amr500. This supercharger made power that wouldn't destroy the a14, but the engine would be constantly under boost. Not good for reliability. However, in the same article, another ratsun member mentioned a different supercharger; the sc14. the notable difference in the sc14 was a little wire leading from the supercharger. After further reading, it seems to be able to toggle the supercharger on and off, which means that it's possible to drive the car with or without forced induction. which means that the engine isn't always under boost, which theoretically means reliability and power when when the time is right for either.

 

2. The tune & methanol injection

i realized that if the car was suddenly supercharged, it would possibly need a tune up in response to the loads of new air being introduced into the engine. the only problem is that for my application, if I tuned in response to the supercharger, the engine would need more fuel; possibly making the car run rich while not under boost. if i tuned for reliability (in response to the new carb setup) the car would possibly run lean under boost. the solution seems to be alcohol/methanol injection after the carb and supercharger; usually used to cool down air coming into the engine. the methanol would cool the air like an intercooler, and be burned in the process of combustion. and since pre 1976 cars are not smogged in California, it would seem legal. The most important part of this (for my application) is the fact that the alcohol is burned and used like fuel; meaning the air/fuel ratio is affected. If a methanol injection is ran while the car is under boost, that could possibly affect the air/fuel ratio to where the car would run at a desired level; that level being slightly rich. If the methanol is not injected while the car isn't under boost, similar to the supercharger, the car could be tuned for economy while the supercharger creates boost directly proportionate to the effect of methanol injection on the air/fuel ratio.

 

Could something like this work?



#2 datzenmike

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 12:48 PM

SC are varied in their boost by the throttle plate. They are not under boost at all times but potentially under boost depending on your foot.

 

Power is by displacement or by revving higher.


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#3 Lockleaf

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 01:01 PM

Incredibly difficult to tune a carb to run well both on and off boost. EFI could handle it no problem by switching maps when you turn on the boost.

Plan on melting a few motors to get the hang of it, or paying someone else a huge amount to still likely melt a motor or 2.

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#4 datzenmike

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:33 PM

On a SC???? The SC just pushes the air fuel into the intake. Same as a draw through turbo. Carb does not need to be 'jetted'. It does have to be able to flow more or lots of air and the fuel delivery may need to be improved so it oesn't run dry..


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#5 ColdSaus

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:54 PM

Incredibly difficult to tune a carb to run well both on and off boost. EFI could handle it no problem by switching maps when you turn on the boost.

Plan on melting a few motors to get the hang of it, or paying someone else a huge amount to still likely melt a motor or 2.

well shoot. I guess i'll have to wait until later on in my ownership to do something like that. Is there any suggestion for an alternative? do I even need that much power in a B210? (maybe just small stuff like a new carb, cam, exhaust, etc.)



#6 datzenmike

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 07:50 PM

Well there are engine/trans swaps. L20B (about 95hp) and 4 or 5 speed. Larger displacement means more torque and lower speeds. KA converted to carb probably over 130 hp. These are engines that are not straining to make this, the make it all day long. 


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#7 flatcat19

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:18 PM

Alternative?

You me tion building the engine up. Forged ta-da ya-das and balanced dohickeys...you didn't make a single mention of building a head.


Engine is where your strength is. The head is where all the horsepower is hidden.



Do that, then learn how to drive the A motor. You'd be surprised what even 100 rwhp feels like in a Sunny.

You can't hang if your nuts haven't dropped...it's physics


#8 ColdSaus

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 10:06 PM

Alternative?

You me tion building the engine up. Forged ta-da ya-das and balanced dohickeys...you didn't make a single mention of building a head.


Engine is where your strength is. The head is where all the horsepower is hidden.



Do that, then learn how to drive the A motor. You'd be surprised what even 100 rwhp feels like in a Sunny.

 

 

Would making a head be a good substitute for a supercharger? I never left something like an engine swap of the table, but it feels like paying for another clean slate. I'll eventually catch "the hp bug" and start messing with it.



#9 flatcat19

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 11:20 PM

Bang for the buck? KA swap. Even an L20B. SR if you got money.

OR...do all your mods with the brakes and suspension. Build an A motor and head on the side. Keep driving.

Really, you don't need 200hp in a Datsun.







You are a long ways from being able to do a supercharger swap yourself.






Hell, I wouldn't do it.

You can't hang if your nuts haven't dropped...it's physics


#10 datzenmike

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 05:02 AM

  You'd be surprised what even 100 rwhp feels like in a Sunny.

 

This.

 

 

You won't even feel 10 hp in a chevy truck but a light B-210? That's like a 15% increase!!!!  Find a rebuildable block, there's no replacement for displacement so go large.... A15. Internals are good for just over 7k but now is the time for better rod bolts. The head you can mod and even update/replace while the engine is in the car later. Look into motorcycle carbs.


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#11 DaBlist

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 11:14 AM

Supercharging is a lot of extra work just to get 15X9's to fit


 "It's like comparing a wooden roller coaster to a modern modern roller coaster. Without a doubt the modern roller coaster is faster, quieter and smoother. But people still love to ride the wooden roller coasters. The sounds, vibrations, jerks and jolts all add to the experience. Sure a wooden roller coaster may not be as fast, but it's sure a fun ride that can equally scare the crap out of you." - Annette

 

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#12 ColdSaus

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 05:21 PM

so should I build a separate engine? an engine swap would require more adaptation, but a second engine will bolt right in.



#13 Dguy210

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 05:46 PM

The way to think of the B210 for upgrades is that for many purposes it is just a short 510 wagon.

 

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#14 flatcat19

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 07:30 PM

510 engine e cross member will bolt in to the B210 to allow for easier L mounting.

You can't hang if your nuts haven't dropped...it's physics


#15 ColdSaus

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:36 AM

is any fab work required for the l20b? as far as I know, it seems like the b210 automatic driveshaft would work; with or without fabrication, but if it's required I might have to biuld up an a15.

#16 DaBlist

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:44 AM

Cars:None yet


 "It's like comparing a wooden roller coaster to a modern modern roller coaster. Without a doubt the modern roller coaster is faster, quieter and smoother. But people still love to ride the wooden roller coasters. The sounds, vibrations, jerks and jolts all add to the experience. Sure a wooden roller coaster may not be as fast, but it's sure a fun ride that can equally scare the crap out of you." - Annette

 

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#17 datzenmike

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 03:01 PM

Measure the auto for length. All L20B autos are 31.5" long. The A series 3N71B auto used in the 1200 and the B-210 is a shorty at 26" long.


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#18 datsunfreak

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:00 PM

is any fab work required for the l20b? 

 

Are you now concerned about minor fab work after mentioning supercharging an A14 to the tune of 200hp??   ^_^

 

 

Recipe:

 

1968-1973 Datsun 510 crossmember, lower control arms, and driveshaft 

 

L16/L18/L20b engine (you need a 510 oil pan for it)

 

Whatever L-series 5 speed you want

 

Have driveshaft professionally resized to the correct length (bolts up with any L trans and the stock B210 diff)

 

Stock B210 diff will take anything you can throw at it with an L-series

 

'68-72 510 wagon diff fits with zero mods, is super beefy, but will widen your track about 1.5"

 

 

 

A well-built L20b is all the power you need in a street-driven B210. Lots of torque, and hell of fun to drive. 


It's your car, just don't ruin it.

 

It's also not my money, so i'll suggest the most expensive option. 

 

 


#19 datsunfreak

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:05 PM

You can run the 510 crossmember with the stock B210 control arms, but it will widen your track about 1". 


It's your car, just don't ruin it.

 

It's also not my money, so i'll suggest the most expensive option. 

 

 


#20 Dguy210

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:24 PM

is any fab work required for the l20b? as far as I know, it seems like the b210 automatic driveshaft would work; with or without fabrication, but if it's required I might have to biuld up an a15.

 

 

Measure the auto for length. All L20B autos are 31.5" long. The A series 3N71B auto used in the 1200 and the B-210 is a shorty at 26" long.

 

510 driveshaft is the same as a B210 auto driveshaft. L20B plus 63A 5 speed is damn near bolt in, if the car was originally an automatic it even uses the same transmission brace and driveshaft.


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