Using a H165 Rear Axle Housing With a Toyota T-Series Pumpkin

[rgjt405]

Has anybody tried to use the Toyota T-Series pumpkin together with the H165 rear axle housing? If so, your comments would be greatly appreciated.

 

The T-Series has a 6.7 inch diameter or 170 mm ring gear and 24 mm diameter axles (before 1986) and 25 mm axles (after 1986).

 

I'm not sure what size axles the H165 uses for the Type1 ring and pinion (low cut gears) up to production date 7/79 that is out of a 1977 200SX.

I've read that some Aussies have adapted the T-series to the H165 housing by drilling new mounting holes (10 instead of 8), but the axle size and number of splines is never really discussed in any detail.

 

I'm wondering if the H165 axles will fit into the spider axle gears on the pre-1986 Toyota T-series?

 

The reason I'm looking into this is because there is a much better selection of R&P gear ratios available for the Toyota T-series in comparison to the H165 Type 1.

I currently have 3.889 in the H165, but I really need 4.3 or 4.6 in my car and have not been able to readily find any new or used R&P sets for those ratios that a suited for the H165 Type 1 carrier.

 

Cheers

Roger

 

 

 

[datzenmike]

The '74 710 automatic uses a 4.11 H-165. This is as low as it gets.

 

 

Nissan and Toyota (and a few others, Subaru, Mazda at one time) were part owners of Fuji Heavy Industries. This is why the Subaru R-165 will fit the older 510. Why early Toyota 4 piston calipers will bolt right onto the 240z car. It's very possible the axles will spline together. Why re-invent the wheel, so to speak?

 

What was the T series used in and what ratios were available???

[rgjt405]

Has anybody tried to use the Toyota T-Series pumpkin together with the H165 rear axle housing? If so, your comments would be greatly appreciated.

 

The T-Series has a 6.7 inch diameter or 170 mm ring gear and 24 mm diameter axles (before 1986) and 25 mm axles (after 1986).

 

I'm not sure what size axles the H165 uses for the Type1 ring and pinion (low cut gears) up to production date 7/79 that is out of a 1977 200SX.

I've read that some Aussies have adapted the T-series to the H165 housing by drilling new mounting holes (10 instead of 8), but the axle size and number of splines is never really discussed in any detail.

 

I'm wondering if the H165 axles will fit into the spider axle gears on the pre-1986 Toyota T-series?

 

The reason I'm looking into this is because there is a much better selection of R&P gear ratios available for the Toyota T-series in comparison to the H165 Type 1.

I currently have 3.889 in the H165, but I really need 4.3 or 4.6 in my car and have not been able to readily find any new or used R&P sets for those ratios that a suited for the H165 Type 1 carrier.

 

Cheers

Roger

The T-series (Zenki) is out of a 1985 Celica (still at Pick and Pull). According to the vehicle tag, is a T372 (6.7 inch, 3.58 ratio and no LSD).

There are a lot of aftermarket gear ratios available at very reasonable prices for the T-series.

I currently have the H165 complete rear axle assembly with the 3.889 that came out of a 1977 200SX.

My question is what size are the axles in this H165 and the number of splines. I know that the T372 from the 1985 Celica uses 24 mm axles and 23 splines.

I am hoping that the H165 that I have uses the same size axle and number of splines.

[datzenmike]

OK I have an S110 ('80 200sx) and a '77 710 H-165 differential and axles. They both interchange into my H-165 differential. I just went out and counted the splines.... 23.

[rgjt405]

OK I have an S110 ('80 200sx) and a '77 710 H-165 differential and axles. They both interchange into my H-165 differential. I just went out and counted the splines.... 23.

 

 

What is the diameter of the axles in the '77 710?

Hopefully 24 mm meaning that the Toyota T-series (Zenki) will fit in the H165 with only the change in the mounting holes from 8 to 10.

[datzenmike]

I got 0.945" across the splines... wait for it...... 24.003mm !!!!

[rgjt405]

I got 0.945" across the splines... wait for it...... 24.003mm !!!!

Wonderful, it's a match made in heaven.

Thanks a whole bunch for taking the time to do this.

Now, I need to head off to Pick and Pull in Kelowna to grab that T372 and order a set of 4.3 out of the US with the shims and crush sleeve (very reasonable price at ~320 US) for a new R&P.

 

BTW, do you have any leads on a 60 or 63 series tranny for the A-series Datsun? 4 speed is preferred.

Mine is starting to make some bearing noises on the input shaft. I really really need to get a spare as I've been pushing my luck.

I suppose I could always cut the bellhousing off the A-series 60 tranny and an early L-series tranny and weld the front part of the A-series onto the back half of the L-series after some careful measurements. The input shafts are probably the same. If not, I could get a custom solid hub clutch disc to match the input shaft.

[datzenmike]

The 63 series that will fit an A series is a 5 speed (dogleg)

[rgjt405]

The 63 series that will fit an A series is a 5 speed (dogleg).

But it has to be specifically for the A-series block coming off some 210's.

My understanding is that all L-series 63 series don't have the correct bellhousing bolt locations as the L-series engines are all slanted to the passenger side.

[datzenmike]

The FS5W63A (dogleg) was fitted for L and Z series engines and was an option on the April '76 B-210 GX A series engines. The F4W56 was used through '73 and the F4W60 from '74

 

The later 210....

The '79 year only had an FS5W60L dogleg 5 speed and '80 and on there was a regular H pattern FS5W60A 5 speed. There were also F4W60 4 speeds these years.

[rgjt405]

The FS5W63A (dogleg) was fitted for L and Z series engines and was an option on the April '76 B-210 GX A series engines. The F4W56 was used through '73 and the F4W60 from '74

 

The later 210....

The '79 year only had an FS5W60L dogleg 5 speed and '80 and on there was a regular H pattern FS5W60A 5 speed. There were also F4W60 4 speeds these years.

Would you happen to have any leads for a F4W60 series for sale in British Columbia or any of the 5 speed versions?

I'm off to Pick and Pull tomorrow to grab the Toyota T-series pumpkin before it disappears.

[datzenmike]

Let me think... there's a large field of farm equipment and cars and trucks just over the border on Trans Can in Sask. There was a late model B210 but that was 10 years ago. Might be automatic also.

[scooter]

those gears aren't low enough for you roger? I shouldof sold you the dogleg out of my car too.

 

what about putting a ford 7.5 in your 1200? or is that going to be too wide? you could pick one up and cut it down and run two short side axles. I'm still content with the 8.8 that replaced the rear you now have, although its a little overkill.

 

welcome to ratsun, cheers.

[rgjt405]

those gears aren't low enough for you roger? I shouldof sold you the dogleg out of my car too.

 

what about putting a ford 7.5 in your 1200? or is that going to be too wide? you could pick one up and cut it down and run two short side axles. I'm still content with the 8.8 that replaced the rear you now have, although its a little overkill.

 

welcome to ratsun, cheers.

I'm trying to keep the weight down as less weight is "free" HP by using the lighter H165. I thought of using the Toyota 7.5" and their 8" differentials, but again too heavy. The Datsun H190 would be better suited only if I could find the alloy carrier, but again, the rear end width is just too wide, and besides the gear ratio availability sucks as well as the cost for those units.

 

I'm currently running the H145 with 4.625, which is too low with only a 4 speed. I really have to baby it to preserve its functionality as the engine that I'm currently running is a little beast (A14, 1494cc) with 14:1 CR, Slover Brother head, twin 44 Mikunis, Elgin camshaft, 78.5 mm Wiseco pistons, forged H-beam connecting rods, lightened valve train, chromemoly pushrods, mushroom lifters, lightened, swirled polished and tuliped stainless steel valves, 2.9 kg chromemoly flywheel, Tilton pressure plate and Tilton solid hub clutch disc, Megasquirt 2 ECU for full ignition control including knock sensor), large tube headers with a 3" collector. The engine pulls extremely hard. The 5-speeds are next to impossible to find these days as I'm currently running the 60-series 4 speed (again having to baby it because of the engine). Running 215x50x13 Kumho tires with medium compound.

The engine pulls very hard all the way to 9K. I've tried the 4.11, which is not bad, but not great when running in 4th gear, especially with my cam, which starts to pull really hard at 4,800 rpm.

That is why the 4.3 would be a good middle ground for me by using the Toyota 6.7 inch T-series with the H165 housing as the H165 housing is just slightly wider than the H145 and still quite light, which will still allow me to run my 8 to 9" wide rear rims without any clearance issues and without any narrowing.

I was also considering the rear ends from the 2WD Geo Tracker/Suzuki Sidekicks (7.5 " R&P) as they have an excellent range of aftermarket LSD and gear ratios for very reasonable prices. Unfortunately, I would have to narrow the axles and housing tubes, re-lug for the 4x4.5" Datsun wheel pattern. Just too much money and the lack of good local machine shops in Kelowna that can tackle this sort of stuff.

Anyway, I'm off to Pick and Pull tomorrow morning to grab the 6.7" pumpkin, and then order the 4.3 from www.weirperformance.com.

[scooter]

Good point about the weight. When you do this you should document it with pictures and post them on here, I'm sure a lot of people on here would appreciate this golden information.

[rgjt405]

Good point about the weight. When you do this you should document it with pictures and post them on here, I'm sure a lot of people on here would appreciate this golden information.

Scott,

 

I got another Toyota 6.7" 3rd member from the Island that has not been butchered up for a very decent price. I will use the welded one for mocking up on the H165 housing as it's a 10 bolt pattern instead of the 8 bolt H165. I also got the axle baffles from the Toyota housing, which will also fit inside the Datsun housing. I got all new brearings for the Toyota T-series from RockAuto together with the seals. I will be ordering the 4.300 R&P with the shims and solid collar from Weir Performance out of the US. These are custom gears, which are stronger than the Toyota TRD sets. There are also a lot of different types of LSD units available for the T-series (clutch, Torsen, 1, 1.5, and 2 way options). I just can't get that for the H165.

 

Anyway, the overall H165 mounting wheel surface is only 10 mm wider on each side relative to the H145. This allows me to run the same rim width and offsets. I just need to change the location of the spring perches slightly and change the location of the brake line T-fitting and the emergency brake adapter.  Also, the distance between the emergency brake cable levers between each drum is the same as the H145. Since the axle flange bolt spacing on the H165 is the same as the H145, I'm going to switch the backing plates and drums and stay with the H145 setup, which will not alter the brake bias between front and rear on the 1200. Going with larger drums on the H165 would change the car's braking behaviour with more braking coming from the rear, which is not good. Currently, my brake setup on the 1200 works very well without any brake fade or strange handling behaviour at high speed "panic" stops.

[Unfamilia]

Hi is there any more progress on this Rjgt

?

Pictures of pumpkin fitting diff housing etc?

[rgjt405]

Hi is there any more progress on this Rjgt

?

Pictures of pumpkin fitting diff housing etc?

Yes, there is. I now have the Toyota drop-out installed into the H165 housing. I still have to straighten the axle tubes after the spring perches have been welded. I fabricated an alignment mandrel that fits through the Toyota carrier bearings and extends to about 50 mm outside of each axle tube bearing.

Send me a PM and I will send you some photos as I am not able to include any photos on this post.

 

Cheers

Roger

[Unfamilia]

Ok with Rogers tips and advice along with some basic tools and carbide bits this was fairly easy as far as fabrication or clearancing to make the AE86/Toyota centre fit the h165 housing.

 

I want to thank Roger as his info inspired me to do this after years of wanting an lsd and dreaming of getting one affordably into a Datsun. 

 

Hardest part was lining the housing up to ensure axles didn't bind then mark and drill and tap the holes. 

 I visually checked the centre out before I installed it and it looked clean and moved smoothly by hand, clutch disk's looked in correct position etc)  and decided in true Datsun spirit to just run it (like any 2nd hand centre I've used).

Works well. It could be a bit tighter but it does what an lsd should do under load. 

Got lucky and it ended up being a 2 way lsd not the 1.5 (from my understanding of its action- locks up under Accel and decel).

 

Great swap in you can find a centre and ratio you want affordably (takumi tax worse that Datsun tax on parts ) 

[G-Duax]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 6:16 PM, Unfamilia said:

Got lucky and it ended up being a 2 way lsd not the 1.5 (from my understanding of its action- locks up under Accel and decel).

 

A 2-way locks equally under accel & decel.

A 1.5 locks half under decel, as it does under acceleration.

The 1-way only locks under acceleration, not at all under decal.

Except....

Initial spring load on the plates then figures into the equation.

I set up my 620 2-way with zero spring pressure, so it doesn't get tail happy in the rain, and I can push it around curves if I need to.

For road racing, I prefer a 1.5-way, as they seem to enter corners a little more glued to the pavement.

 

[dukerollo]

Great information guys. That is why this forum is gold. Thank you. 

[dukerollo]

Rgjt405 put together this write up on the process:

 

 Photo showing the Toyota 10-bolt stud layout pattern. The studs hole diameter from center to center is 194 mm compared to the H165 8-bolt pattern of 189 mm center to center.
The new housing diameter that you have to grind out is 177 mm in order to have the Toyota carrier fit properly without having any side to side play.
You can use the Toyota gasket to help mark out the diameter that you have to enlarge on the H165 housing. It’s easier than finding the center and then scribing a line for the 177 mm diameter opening.

 

 

Photo showing the Toyota 10-bolt stud pattern in comparison to the Datsun H165 8-bolt pattern. The 10-bolt pattern is perfect as it allows my alignment mandrel shaft to push right through the carrier bearings and out to the outer wheel bearings. This was a good test for me to confirm that the bolt pattern was perfect. Basically, the Toyota pattern will require a hole exactly at the 12 o’clock and the 6 o’clock position.
The nice thing about this setup is that you can still use the Datsun H165 dropout as everything else is compatible.
BTW, the Toyota dropout length (from pinion flange surface to axle housing mounting surface is about 12 mm shorter than the H165 length. This makes is easy enough to simply have a spacer to adapt the Datsun tail shaft flange pattern to the Toyota flange without having to change the driveshaft.
The Toyota pinion flange uses a 78 mm PCD (pitch circle diameter) giving a square pattern (about 46 x 46 mm between each hole diameter).

 

 

The end of the tape shows the little dent that is required to clear the bearing cap. It’s not big at all, maybe 15 mm across by 5 mm deep.

 

[Grant66Bluebird]

On 6/3/2017 at 4:54 PM, datzenmike said:

The '74 710 automatic uses a 4.11 H-165. This is as low as it gets.

 

 

Nissan and Toyota (and a few others, Subaru, Mazda at one time) were part owners of Fuji Heavy Industries. This is why the Subaru R-165 will fit the older 510. Why early Toyota 4 piston calipers will bolt right onto the 240z car. It's very possible the axles will spline together. Why re-invent the wheel, so to speak?

 

What was the T series used in and what ratios were available???

I have a 66 Nissan bluebird with a h165 with a 4.375 ratio. I’ve seen you a lot on here. I’m wondering if you can help me source a 4.11 if anything.

[datzenmike]

I have a 4.11 H-165. Only car I know that had this was the '74 710 automatic which had an L18 in it.