Front hub assembly differences

[Lockleaf]

I want to figure out if a person can change their front hub offset by swapping different hubs on to their struts. Starting with the assumption that your car uses the larger A2/A6 bearing set, can you swap S12, m30, z31, etc hubs on to your 280zx struts (or whichever set you are using)? And do they have different wheel mounting surface (WMS) heights ( = different offset)?

 

I found part of a discussion on this topic on ozdat, but nothing more.

 

http://ozdat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=12911

 

Here's a pic stolen from there.

 

 

I most curious about wms differences between them, though i realize it could alter brake rotor location as well. Let's ignore that for now.

 

WMS= left side of yellow to right side of red.

 

According to the info on Ozdat:

 

S12 hubs- ylw=96.5mm, rd and blu=21mm, rear hub=55.5mm.

910 hubs- Are same as S12 above.

240K hubs- ylw=99mm, rd and blu=34mm, rear of hub=34mm.

Z31 (5stud) hubs- ylw=?, rd and blu=17.5mm, rear hub=57mm.

DR30 hubs- ylw=?, rd and blue=17.5mm, rear hub=?.

 

So adding "rear of hub" and "red and blue" we get:

 

S12: 76.5 mm

240K: 68 mm

Z31: 74.5 mm (5 lug)

 

Can any of you guys measure any other hubs you have laying around and post the measurements?

 

I'm hoping to measure my S12 5 lug hubs tomorrow and post that up.

[toylet]

s12 5 lug hub is the same as the z31 5 lug early turbo/ late non turbo hub.

[flatcat19]

If you change the hub for offset you'd have to change calipers and discs too to be able to have brakes as the hub now is at a different mounting distance from caliper bracket bolts. Right?

 

 

Seems like too much work, R&D, expense. To the avail of nothing really fits together now.

 

 

Maybe a spacer could be used to make up the gap. Seems dodgy.

[Lockleaf]

Noted. Now do you have any measurements to add?

[thisismatt]

Yes.

Yes.

 

Also have to consider grease seals, because they are different and even if the bearings are the same the grease seals may be different sizes.

[Lockleaf]

Are seals not attached to the hub? I dont recall the strut having the seals on it.

[thisismatt]

Yes, but the spindle is machined with the two bearing surfaces as well as a separate grease seal surface.  This surface is different diameter between struts, eg it's different between the early 4-lug 300zx and the 280zx if I recall correctly.

[thisismatt]

Here you can see the large diameter grease seal surface on the base of the spindle right before the powder coat.  These are 4-lug s12 200sx struts

 

[Lockleaf]

Got it. The 300z had a smaller seal. The larger seal on the 280zx covers most anything pre 83'.

 

 

'83-'86 use the smaller seal.

 

 

And an M30 seal is different yet again and shared with 87+ 300z.

 

 

 

My brain is not seeing how that back section fits together with the seal back there on the strut. I will have to look at that tomorrow.

[thisismatt]

On the outer side of the hub you have a machined surface for the outer bearing race to press into.  On the inside of the hub you have two machined surfaces, one larger diameter at the inside edge of the hub for the grease seal, and then a smaller one farther in for the inner bearing race.  On the spindle you have, from outside to inside, hole for cotter pin, thread, outer bearing surface, spindle spindle spindle, inner bearing surface, grease seal surface.

[Lockleaf]

FWIW, okayfine over on the Realm reports he's running z31 hubs on 280zx struts and has not seen any negative impact with regard to the seals etc.

 

http://www.the510realm.com/viewtopic.php?t=24149

[toylet]

what are your goals? do you want 5 lug or 4 lug? do you want big brakes or no?what offset and size wheels do you want to run? In my garage I have ...88 300zx turbo hubs,m30 hubs,300zx non turbo 5 lug hubs, 280zx hubs, 200sx v6 hubs, 300zx 4 lug hubs.

 

The best ones to get for big brakes are the m30 hubs and struts can leave them as 4 lug or drill them to 5 lug. Most any newer big brake nissan caliper will bolt to it. There is a M30 at a junk yard by my house.

[Lockleaf]

I want a database of measurements people can play with in the future. M30 adds width, so what if they don't want that, but want the modern brake options? Etc.

 

I have a set of s12 v6 struts with 5 lug hubs which inspired the question. I will eventually be going back down to 4 lug. Yes I'm wondering what might bolt right on 4 lug, but I'm wondering ever so much more than that. So i thought an interchange/modifications database would be cool.

[scooter]

Here you can see the large diameter grease seal surface on the base of the spindle right before the powder coat.  These are 4-lug s12 200sx struts

 

These struts are on my car now :) these actually brought my wheels in half an inch compared to s10 200sx struts. Im also curious about this for the possibility of putting 5 lug z31 hubs on down the road. Also for caliper swaps as theres no performance pad that fits in a 4 cylinder s12 caliper. I want to try an s13 caliper and a toyota s12+8 caliper, theres also the thought of using a 280 zx hub which apparently brings your wheels in even more and use a slip over s13 rotor.

 

I can measure up the s10 hub and a s12 4 cylinder hub and post here.

[Lockleaf]

Please do measure those and post it up.

 

The s13 caliper wont fit without an adapter as it uses the modern bracket spacing. I know the Toyota one fits Z cars, so i assume it fits all the old spacing struts.

[docbainey]

Im kinda ignorant about this sht and need to learn. So the larger bearing strut spindles, like a 75 610, or a 81 280zx, probably late 710s 510s and whatever else from the late 70s early 80s 200sx? Can all there hubs fit on any of those strut spindles? regardless of wheel mounting face and brake disc mounting face on the hub? It appears that the struts I have all have the same basic spindle dimensions. Bearing cntr to cntr, lngth and spindle/seal dia. Ratsun needs basic cadam!!!!!  I dont know what a2/a6 and s12 m30 s31 and the like refer to? Sorry about my ignorance.

[Lockleaf]

Hubs fitting different spindles its the point of this mostly dead discussion. I want to have that interchange available. But right now the answer is unknown.

 

A2/a6 are bearing part numbers.

 

S12 m30 z31 are Nissan chassis codes referring to specific generations of a car.

 

S12 is a mid eighties 200sx.

 

M30 isn't actually a chassis code its an early 90s infiniti two door named m30.

 

Z31 is late eighties 300zx.

[docbainey]

what do a2/a6 bearings fit? spindle wise, I didn't know bearings could be called out that simplistically for dimensions

[Lockleaf]

Those bearings fit essentially every RWD Datsun/Nissan car newer than 72 up to early 90s except for 1200s and 210/310s.

[docbainey]

Cool great info!!!  So would  any of those hubs fit onto any of those strut spindles since they all use the same bearings?  Im just thinking about bearing spacing or spindle length. You can have the same bearings but, say some are 3" apart and some are 4" apart? If the spindle/bearing spacing, length what ever, bearing cl to bearing cl is the same that is great to know. For me anyway! Thanks so much!

[Lockleaf]

Dude, your question is exactly the purpose of this discussion. We don't have the answer you are asking for. That's why i want all the measurments i asked for in the first post.

[scooter]

OK

heres what i have...

 

S10 200sx front caliper bolt pattern is 3 inches center to center.

 

4 cylinder s12 200sx is 3.5 inches, these are off a car that had a CA18ET in it and are identical to the ones from thisismatt other than those ones were shortened and coil overed.

 

Its confirmed that s10 and s12 use the same spindle,  BUT THE S10 takes a larger seal! the s10 is about an inch longer in the seal area than the s12 spindle. when I did this swap the stock struts made the tires poke, where the s12 struts tucked in.

S10 200sx seal size

 

4 cylinder S12 Seal ID

4 cylinder S12 seal OD

S10 seal inner diameter

 

S10 and S12 share the same pin inclination angle

 

The s12 strut puts the strut pin a lot closer to the ball joint centerline

 

S10 disc flange height

 

S12 Disc flange height...

S10 wheel flange height

S12 4 cyl hub wheel flange height

 

I hope all this is helpful

It should also be noted that the S10 hub is quite a bit heavier than the S12 hub.

I would like to see how these compare to other hubs. (280zx, 300zx, 510, etc.)

 

What I want to do is mock up the S12 4 cylinder strut with the S10 hub, S13 257mm disc bolted to the rear and a Toyota s12+8 caliper bolted right to the strut.

using the S10 hubs it will move the disc very close to the strut and with my offset wheels the disc is probably going to be outside the rim with not much caliper in the rim. all the brakes in a 13 inch wheel.

kinda like this setup

 

[thisismatt]

If you measure in metric you'll get more round numbers, and I find it easier to measure C-C by measuring edge to edge...same number, easier to read.

 

Another thing to note is that steering knuckles have the ball joint stud hole in different positions, side to side with respect to the strut. This alters camber/scrub radius/track width/etc if you change from one knuckle to another. For example, 510 vs 280zx: