PL510 Timing problems

[Zephyr]

I have gone through the this motor time and time again. I have also gone through this forum to try and find an answer no luck. Here is my problem starting with what I have checked. When I am at tdc my v notch is correct, my cam is at 10 and 2 on #1 my spinal is at 11:28 my #1 piston is up my plug wires are 1342 counter clockwise it backfires out the carb and won't start checked everything numerous times all seems right then I spun the crank by hand counted revolutions and it took 6 revolutions of the crankshaft to spin the spinal one revolution. Something seems wrong to me why 6 revolutions. Do I have a 6 cylinder oil pump gear? What do you guys think I am a little new to the l20b it does have an el distributor this is my first post thank you for any help.

[datzenmike]

6 turns is 3 times too much.

 

 

Set to TDC and have the valve cover off. Still 10 and 2 on the cam lobes, both pointing up rather than down? Distributor at 11:28?

 

Turn the crankshaft two (2) times. What position are the valves in now?

 

If back to 10 and 2 and yet the distributor drive spindle is not at 11:28.....then the drive worm gear on the crank is slipping. This is held on with a woodruff key. It is missing or broken.

 

If after two (2) turns the valves are not at 10 and 2 then the crank shaft pulley is slipping. Same reason... it is secured to the crank shaft by a woodruff key. Broken or missing.

 

[banzai510(hainz)]

you watch my L series vid?

 

put in Hainz video in seach up in corner

 

Be honest I dont really get what your saying, 6 full turns of the crank pulley and 1 rotation of the cam? Now you dont need to be a gunuis to figure this one out. But I think mike has got this one with the dowls missing. Heard of them shearing off.

 

Or you mean you turn the crank 6 times before the timming brite links line up again? you used the jap timming chain kit with the brite links. This is only for initial install after that just use the  marks on crank and the timming cover and cam markings.

 

even if the crank pulleykey  is sheared  timming was correct it should still run. as this only opperates the water pump and alternator. Unless the worm gear woodruft key wasnt install or sheared also

 

You see if the distributor is moving a all and in the CCW direction?    I dont know if that worm gear can be installed wrong or not.. Worm gear moves the PUmp and the dist shaft

 

maybe the dist is wired wrong. assume you have a matchbox type

 

photos at TDC, dist and the cam and the pulley

 

 

sell me car

[Doctor510]

I have gone through the this motor time and time again. I have also gone through this forum to try and find an answer no luck. Here is my problem starting with what I have checked. When I am at tdc my v notch is correct, my cam is at 10 and 2 on #1 my spinal is at 11:28 my #1 piston is up my plug wires are 1342 counter clockwise it backfires out the carb and won't start checked everything numerous times all seems right then I spun the crank by hand counted revolutions and it took 6 revolutions of the crankshaft to spin the spinal one revolution. Something seems wrong to me why 6 revolutions. Do I have a 6 cylinder oil pump gear? What do you guys think I am a little new to the l20b it does have an el distributor this is my first post thank you for any help.

No such thing as a "6 cylinder oil pump gear"

[Zephyr]

First thank you for the replies. Datzenmike when I turn the crank 2 times yes my #1 cylinder is at tdc and yes my valves are ounce again at 10 and 2 rabbit eared up. My crank pulley is definitely not slipping. I thought mybe my worm gear mybe lost some teeth but it just seemed weird that the distributor shaft would be at the 11:28 position every time I spun the crank six times I thought if the gear was bad that it would show up more in random directions than still showing 11:28 after six turns. Hainz spell check got me on spindal it checked to spinal. I'm talking about the distributor drive shaft or spindal. The crank and cam are lined up correctly it is just the distributor spindal that is giving me grief. Like I said or tried to say #1 cylinder at tdc, cam lobes on #1 are at 10 and 2 v notch is just to the right of the - mark on the cam plate that mounts around the camshaft on the front of the front cam tower and the crank pulley is on 0 degrees tdc. That stays the same every 2 revolutions of the crank it's just the distributor shaft or (spindal) turns one revolution for every six revolutions of the crank shaft.so I'm guessing by what in told is remove Crank pulley remove radiator fan then remove oil pump then timing cover replace worm gear on crankshaft and woodruff keys then put back together in same order. I know I will have to replace timing cover gasket should I also replace the front camshaft seal. What about the oil pan gasket and head gasket will I be replacing those too I just did the head gasket to give the cam a regrind. If someone could let me know what gaskets seals and parts I would need to order to get this job done that would be greatly appreciated I live in Seattle with no garage so having all the proper parts before I start is kind of important this time of year here weather can have a mind of its own I need to be able to get it all done in one day.thank you very much for the help I tried to search the forum for info the best I could but I could not find this particular problem. I will try to send pictures of all the proper positions and checks I've done at tdc not the best with computers but I'll give it a shot thanks again Datzenmike, Heinz and doctor510

[racerx]

Not sure if mentioned but at tdc, ur dist. Rotor should be facing number 1 spark plug. While there, mark ur tdc with white out or chaulk for future reference.

[datzenmike]

Well check the distributor at 2 turns. It should be at  11:28 on every even number of turns. 22 turns would also line up. So will six... I'm curious what 2 turns does.

[Zephyr]

At 2 turns of the crank the distributor makes about a third of a turn and six turns of the crank shaft it makes a full 360 turn back at 11:28 on the spindal so to get the spindal at 11:28 I turn the crankshaft six times. So in other words the distributor makes one 360 degree turn on in every 6 turns 6,12,18,24 instead of 2,4,6,8,10

[datzenmike]

Alright. Then the woodruff key is missing or broken and the worm gear on the crank is loose. I suppose the matching gear on the spindle could be loose but I took one off once. Had to heat with a torch and use a press. Those suckers are on there by freezing the spindle and hearing the gear, press on quickly and when warmed and expanded/contracted they may as well be welded.

[Zephyr]

Thank you Datzenmike I will order the parts I think I need to pull the timing cover off. I think I need head gasket oil pump gasket then the small section of pan gasket for the front of the oil pan and new crankshaft front seal. Do you think if all is ok with the gears and such that those are all the parts I would need sorry to ask again I just want to have all the parts I can before I start. Thanks again

[datzenmike]

Well I can't think of anything else that would fit the symptoms. I also can't see this causing any damage. 

 

Once the pulley is off.... I just remove the bolt and tap the back side towards the rad. You don't have to hit it hard jut keep tapping and it very slowly moves forward and off. I've never had to use a puller.

 

Water pump, oil pump and distributor off to get the timing cover off.

 

There is a large 'washer' on the end of the crankshaft behind the cover called an oil slinger. Take note which way it faces for when putting it back.

 

The worm gear for the spindle is right behind it and should just slide off. The crank will have a half moon cut into it for the woodruff key. Hopefully by now you have found that this is the cause.

[banzai510(hainz)]

PartsGeek has a front cover kit by Victor Renz. Felpro is another brand but the Victor Renz has a oil pan splice.

 

You  need to lower the oil pan also.otherwise youll just ruin the oil pan gasket when putting the front cover back on

 

why dont you give a history of this car.  

 

 

no garage with 510 ownershipp is not good.  Esp a Apartment complex. means car towed to the dump from landlord(see this many times)..

 

what would suck is you put the NEW key in then it falls in the oil pan.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Spell check - spindle

 

Remove the oil pan to make the job easier and to ensure leak free assembly. Put front cover on before oil pan.

 

If key is loose in the key way, stake the key way with a punch to make it tight again.

[Zephyr]

Thank you for the info Datzenmike I have not pulled it apart have a 3 year old and work is crazy busy I ordered all the parts I hope. I got front crank seal, victor renz seal kit and an oil pan gasket just in case It gets f***** up oil pump gasket and head gasket. Stoffregen correct my spelling sucks but it sucks more when spellcheck spellchecks your words that are spelled wrong wrong. The oil pan gasket is the cork one and the po put sealant on the top of the pan,bottom of the gasket so removing it will be chalenging I don't have a cherry picker so I want to do all this with motor in car. I am new to these cars but looks to me in the diagram and looking at the pan itself you have to pull the motor to pull the oil pan. I'm hoping to loosen pan and just scrape the sealant off the front of the pan and use the slice gasket unless there is a way to remove the pan without removing the motor. no matter how I put a new oil pan gasket on it looks to be a pita. I might pull the motor if it's worth it and if I can hunt one down from a freind. the motor plate between the motor and tranny does not go all the way down the bell housing so I could fab one of those up if I pulled the motor and there is no driveline in the car right now. I mainly want to get the car running before putting money in to it.

Hainz I bought the car a couple of months ago from a guy that got the car from someone that started the project and the gave up the guy I bought the car from said he had the head done and went through the rest of the motor told me everything was good so I bought the car. Compression was good. So when I got home I pulled the su's apart cleaned them up new gaskets new distributor new plugs new plug wires tried to get it running no luck I then pulled the cam cover off rusty cam pretty pitted kind of a bummer since I was told it was freshly rebuilt so I had a regrind done on it 272 and put it back in tried to get it running and by chance every time I would look at the distributor shaft it would go to 11:28 at #1 tdc so here I am the cars needs brakes to be gone through. It has no driveline in it still have to get it shortened it has a five speed front coilovers needs clutch slave cylinder some brake And clutch lines needs headers the ones po gave me with the car hit the bell housing so for now I have a set of stock manifold to get it running they also hit the bell housing but not as bad I have cleaned up the wiring still a couple wires I'm not sure go to.throttle linkage needs to get done to. The car itself is in pretty good shape not a rusty car just in a few spots easy fixes the gas tank has vinegar in it soaking a little rusty. That's all I've got on history hainz and what needs to be done there are a few other things yes on my to do list is build a mother in law with 2 1/2 car garage. still saving money still paying for the house I built on the property the 510 will get covered with something until the garage gets built but that's all I have to do. If I do pull the oil pan mine is pretty beat up anybody have an extra one collecting dust. Thanks again just waiting on some parts

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Use your floor jack and lift the motor up. Remove the motor mount bolts first. Block it up with 2x4's or some such, and then drop the crossmember. There's only 2 bolts on either side and you don't need to remove it, just lower it.

 

I get it about the 3 year old. I'm 44, I have my own business and I take care of the kids (3 and 8) when my wife works her fire dept schedule (24 hr shifts). So I never get a day off, but I somehow still manage to get three to four trucks built per year. Don't worry about it, just work on it.

 

Someone said that to keep a project rolling, do something on it every day. Even if it's just looking at it.

[Doctor510]

At 2 turns of the crank the distributor makes about a third of a turn and six turns of the crank shaft it makes a full 360 turn back at 11:28 on the spindal so to get the spindal at 11:28 I turn the crankshaft six times. So in other words the distributor makes one 360 degree turn on in every 6 turns 6,12,18,24 instead of 2,4,6,8,10

Back in the day, NISMO had a special "spindle" and brass gear.  The brass gear was much larger in diameter and the spindle gear was smaller than stock, you MIGHT have one of the small geared ones.  Please remove it and measure the diameter and post it so we can check a good stock one to be sure.  What you have described is impossible if the gears are good.  IF the "worm" gear on the crank is loose, it will give the symptoms you have described.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Good observation. I forgot about those gears. That's not a likely scenario, because they are pretty rare, but you never know.

 

OP should get a pic of the drive gear. That would tell us everything we need to know.

[Zephyr]

Stoffregen and Doctor 510 I am going to try to get a head start this weekend I might have a few hours we are in the same boat stoffregen my wife is a nurse she works 2 12 hour shifts this weekend hard to get anything done. I will at least pull the oil pump and take a look at the spindle thanks for the info I will jack the motor up and loosen the crossmember and pull the oil pan it wouldn't be bad to take a look in there anyway one piece gasket would make me feel better anyway. I'm assuming I'll have enough room to remove pan with oil intake on. Could you let me know will I need to also put in a new head gasket or can timing cover come off and go on with out removing head. I will let you guys know about the the spindle and crank gear as soon as I pull them. I will take a picture and try to send it so far I can't figure that out. Thanks again

[datzenmike]

Spindle falls out when you remove the oil pump.

[banzai510(hainz)]

this is waht confusses me

everytime you put on TDC its at 11.28?????? this is correct

but then you say 6 revs to get back at TDC.

 

load up on youtube and show us.

 

your in seattle area there are a few people with alot of part if you need them but you better have money

[Zephyr]

Hainz everything with the crankshaft, camshaft is correct. My only problem is to get the distributor to make one 360 turn I have to turn the crankshaft 6 360 degree turns instead of 2 360 degree turns so to get my distributor to turn one revolution my crankshaft has to turn 3 times the revolutions as it should take to turn the distributor but after 6 turns of the crank it is always at 11:28. And about the oil pan if someone has one I would be willing to give some cash for it. I will try to leave the head gasket on when I remove and install the timing cover hoping it won't tear it up.

[datzenmike]

The crank shaft and the spindle gears have a 2:1 ratio. Crank turns twice to one spindle turn. All 4 stroke engines work this way. The L series has a 10 tooth worm gear on the crankshaft engaging a 20 tooth spindle that drives the oil pump and distributor.

 

20 tooth

 

 

10 tooth

 

 

Now if the spindle was stripped somewhere it would just stop on the flat spot and the driven worm gear would just keep turning... loss of engagement.

 

If the worm gear had some teeth missing it would keep turning until the good teeth came round and engaged the spindle. The worm has 10 teeth on it. If it was damaged say, and had a 'flat spot' with missing teeth it would take more than two turns to turn the spindle once. I worked out that if 3.3 teeth were left on the worm, each crank turn would move the spindle 3.333 teeth. Then six crank turns would turn the spindle 19.999 (20 teeth) or once.

 

Wow the chances of exactly 3.3 teeth left to give exactly 6 turns is as unlikely as the woodruff key broken and the worm slipping exactly 3 times as much. I don't know what to make of this.

[Zephyr]

That is interesting Datzenmike it is wierd that the spindle shows 11:28 every six turns of the crank that is what got me is how it is at exactly 11:28 every six. that's why I thought it had a gear from a car with more cylinders because what are the chances of it being so exact every 6 turns seems it would be random not still showing up at 11:28 in my mind. Doesn't look like I'm working on it today awfully wet out. It's under a home made hoop house not big enough to work under mybe tomorrow decent weather. When I pull it apart I'll let you all know thanks.

[datzenmike]

No. EVERY four stroke engine no matter how many cylinders they have, has two turns of the crank to one turn of the distributor. V8s V12s one cylinder Briggs & Stratton lawnmowers are this way.

 

 

 

Lets assume it's correct for a moment and that we are observing wrongly.

 

 

How are you turning the engine around? by hand?

 

Is the valve cover off? Can you watch the cam turning?

 

Set TDC 11:28 and look at front two cam lobes. They should be pointing up at 10 and 2 o'clock. Confirmed? YES???

 

Now turn the engine ONE turn.... where are the cam lobes pointing? and where is the distributor rotor pointing?

[Zephyr]

I'm turning by hand. Valve cover off. Two turns of the crank and I'm back at tdc v notch good crank on tdc mark. Cam is turning. Just went out to the car and did notice the spindal does move in and out when I grab it with needle nose? Raining to hard to get into it.