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411 front disc brake conversion


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#1 Pedro

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 04:59 PM

Hey Guys,

 

I'm aware there has been a few of these topics, and that one dude made a welded caliper bracket conversion etc (unfortunately welded caliper bracket is not legal in Australia).

 

So with that aside, here are my questions;

 

- I'm led to believe the front brakes on a 411 SS/SSS and a sp311 roadster are the same? Is this correct? If yes, does that mean the spindles are the same on those models?

 

- If the spindles are the same between the models above, looking at pictures on the internet, the hubs appear to be different to the 411 non SSS hubs (bear with me). Anyone know if it's just the hub that is different? Meaning I could purchase some SP311 hubs & front caliper/bracket/rotors and win at life?

 

- Who has done any conversion in the brakes department for a 411? Interested to chat to you.

 

I would be happy to run drums all round from factory, but the fact is my brakes haven't been used in 20 years, and it's looking like $1k in parts to replace shoes, wheel cylinders, single piston master cylinder etc.

 

Sp311 gear would be a quick easy win, otherwise I'll have to start looking at hub replacements & caliper brackets OR a complete spindle replacement from a nissan hardbody or something, which introduces other issues like steering compatibility & stud pattern etc etc.

 

/End rant & questions.

 

help!



#2 erichwaslike

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 05:09 PM

roadster and 411 use a drastically different spindle and brake setup


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#3 Pedro

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 05:18 PM

roadster and 411 use a drastically different spindle and brake setup

 

Doh! So disc front brake components are completely different? Can you provide a bit more detail, appreciate the help.



#4 MikeRL411

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 07:23 PM

Contact "Tana the Datsun Lady" on this site for RL411 front end parts!  She is closing out her stash of early Datsun parts and just have a few RL411 front end parts to ease your future concerns,



#5 Pedro

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 09:15 PM

Contact "Tana the Datsun Lady" on this site for RL411 front end parts!  She is closing out her stash of early Datsun parts and just have a few RL411 front end parts to ease your future concerns,

 

Thanks Mike, I'll shoot her a message, but I'm resigning myself to the fact a 4 wheel disc brake upgrade might be on the cards. I have a 410 parts car, so I can pull the front suspension out of it for making my own kit. Just need to find a decent caliper off a common model to start with.

 

I want to keep 13 inch steel rims, so will be looking for a suitable caliper that fits a smaller disc. Will post updates as it moves along.



#6 Pedro

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 09:22 PM

Forgot about this one, might not be useful for you guys state side, but for any Australian guys. This is a conversion done on a Datsun 1000, but I have a feeling it may cross over

 

R31 skyline rear caliper bracket

R31 rear rotor

Ke55-ke70 front girlock calipers

Commodore caliper cradle bolted to girlock caliper

 

23072011062.jpg

16072011052.jpg



#7 Swedishcadillac

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 02:57 AM

During one of my late night research binges, I found that Geo Metro disc brakes and calipers will fit inside a 13 inch rim. Brackets would have to be fabricated... But such is 410/411 life!

http://www.fordmuscl...s/527929?page=1
Had to be Datsun, a wagon, stick and RWD.


6cccac68-e34b-4b4a-8e91-b9ffdd2746d3_zps

#8 Pedro

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 03:08 PM

During one of my late night research binges, I found that Geo Metro disc brakes and calipers will fit inside a 13 inch rim. Brackets would have to be fabricated... But such is 410/411 life!

http://www.fordmuscl...s/527929?page=1

 

Interesting Josh, I think they are called a suzuki Swift over here. Will check it out. The only pain might be having to either redrill the rotors for PCD and centre hole AND/OR buying a blank rotor and doing the same.

 

These guys seem to do some sort of caliper bracket that could be copied from a design perspective

 

tekkie.070208_kit1.jpg



#9 Swedishcadillac

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 07:28 PM

Interesting Josh, I think they are called a suzuki Swift over here. Will check it out. The only pain might be having to either redrill the rotors for PCD and centre hole AND/OR buying a blank rotor and doing the same.
 
These guys seem to do some sort of caliper bracket that could be copied from a design perspective
 
tekkie.070208_kit1.jpg



Geo metro, Suzuki swift and pretty much all early Datsun are 4 x 114.3 PCD. That's why I thought it's a good option for disk swap that accepts a 13" wheel
Had to be Datsun, a wagon, stick and RWD.


6cccac68-e34b-4b4a-8e91-b9ffdd2746d3_zps

#10 Pedro

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:00 AM

Forgot about this one, might not be useful for you guys state side, but for any Australian guys. This is a conversion done on a Datsun 1000, but I have a feeling it may cross over

 

R31 skyline rear caliper bracket

R31 rear rotor

Ke55-ke70 front girlock calipers

Commodore caliper cradle bolted to girlock caliper

 

23072011062.jpg

16072011052.jpg

 

 

Made some progress with the below stuff;

 

R31 skyline rear caliper bracket - procured, some trimming required on edges to make it sit flat on the spindle face, will also require about 1mm taken out from the internal hole diameter, also needs holes welded and redrilled to suit (will use drum backing plate guide as reference. Pic below

R31 rear rotor - Rotor will need some machining internally OR hub machined, I will do the hubs if there is enough material to do so when the time comes.

Ke55-ke70 front girlock calipers - Did some investigative work and I believe Stanza Girlock calipers may be identical to the corolla ones, this is good news for me as I got stanza calipers for $55 posted versus $150 for a set of corolla ones.

Commodore caliper cradle bolted to girlock caliper - Need to find these as the last component to trial it up together.

 

Master Cylinder - Looking like this may do the job -> http://www.ebay.com....119.m1438.l2649

 

Some pics

 

D27313D8-64A9-47E4-B0B1-462D8E0758A6_zps

5FEB48F7-92AA-4B54-94B9-800ADA65716E_zps

 

Rotor centre needs machining

 

1AEC8A6D-80B6-4715-959A-0B3A38FC1CB6_zps

 

50 years of neglect

IMG_9926_zpskyix2ngi.jpg

 

Front Drum setup

IMG_9911_zpsctgk8lqi.jpg

IMG_9910_zpsnri5f7t7.jpg



#11 Pedro

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 03:35 PM

Just for a thread update, have progressed slightly with this.

Bought R31 caliper brackets, removed spindle from parts sedan, stripped off Drum brake gear, mocked up R31 caliper bracket. Took to a R31 rear disc with a grinder to make it fit over the P410 hub for mocking.

R31 brackets required some material to be removed from the sides to sit flat, welded up holes on the brackets as they don't line up. Redrilled them to suit using the drum backing plate bolt guide.

Bought some Stanza girlock calipers in the hope they would work in place of the corolla calipers but they are a wider spacing, doh. So went for commodore rear calipers instead due to price and availability ($70 a pair vs $140+ for corolla).

Ordered a dual piston master cylinder based off information on datsun1200.com. Found out the master I received is for a car with a booster, so now need to make new push rod for the master.


P410 spindle with 50 years of crud/neglect
IMG_9910_zpsnri5f7t7.jpg
7E74B864-9F81-4945-AFBB-3F5414BA2959_zps
FE743DDC-41C2-4710-9321-D7102E326AC1_zps

R31 disc before grinding, just needs some clearancing in the centre (I will machine hubs to suit when I confirm this will all work).

1AEC8A6D-80B6-4715-959A-0B3A38FC1CB6_zps

R31 bracket mockup
D27313D8-64A9-47E4-B0B1-462D8E0758A6_zps

Welded (complete overkill with wire but limited time and done in the dark, so no farks given)
IMG_0466_zpsglwtfd89.jpg
Ground Back
IMG_0484_zps1bkevyis.jpg
IMG_0485_zpsqalabhvr.jpg
Use Hub/steering knuckle nut holder as template for new holes in caliper bracket
4A1EBF00-9F7C-41BE-9823-B19CBE2C037D_zps
83586176-B334-45EA-8516-21EEACA9B48A_zps
F1D3725D-7AC8-407B-B0BD-D6CFF32459CC_zps
Mockup
89F8D2DB-97F9-4C24-9193-2AB13F2C3BB5_zps
04EA3AC6-2B53-4963-BAB0-8FE793F2D4C4_zps
Flipped existing one over to mark holes for second bracket
669080BB-47D1-491C-9D60-B71B1690F189_zps


New Brake Master arrived (JB1196)
409ED0AD-0DAC-43A1-86D2-ADCB908B9401_zps
A4BE6F63-30C0-46FA-8395-D186D8DBE478_zps

Old single piston brake master
871A3199-0DEB-465E-A1E1-6D9C2584274D_zps
34DA8D65-129E-4DD9-81F7-5C7CA0877B0F_zps
Pushrods are different, this is the non boosted one
73949C7B-999F-49D2-B233-F0C98113F155_zps

Removed the circlip and washer to fit the non boosted push rod
136F25F5-1C46-4249-9660-0C6395FB7E5A_zps
Fitted it, but confident it won't work, so now will remove and make a whole new one to suit (will reuse clevis)
541CEC8F-9336-47E0-9235-AAE915F91FBB_zps

The summary is all I really need to do to make the above work is;

 

- Get some round material with a hole through the centre (thick enough to not flex) so I can fill the space between the caliper bracket and the caliper bolt holes.

- Run new brake lines (new rubber ones may also be required) for the dual master setup.

- Buy new rotors and machine hub down to suit rotors.

- Make a new pushrod to suit "boosted" master cylinder (used in non boosted setup).

 

After going through all this stuff, it definitely shows me how easy it would be to create a caliper bracket to suit most decent 2 piston calipers. The disc brake "hat" depth is where you get your wheel offset and spacing from steering arms sorted.

 


 



#12 ]2eDeYe

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 10:22 AM

Nice use of stock components. :)


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Whenever I think that I'm out of my mind for putting this much time and money into an old Datsun, all I have to do is look some of your threads to know that I'm not nearly as whack as you are.

You're going to skin a few knuckles, stand up too fast and bump your head, hunt around the floor for the nuts and bolts you dropped, invent a few new cuss words and when you're finished you'll say "That wasn't so hard after all!"


#13 jfbrink

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Posted 26 November 2016 - 08:18 AM

This is exciting. Do you think you could provide factory part numbers on the components so that we can see if any of these bits and pieces are available on US market cars? It doesn't seem that any of these models have US equivalents, but hopefully the parts bin knows no borders.

 

I'm very interested to see how the fit goes with the 10" rotors inside 13" wheels. The RL411 rotors are about 8.75" and the Metro/Swift rotors are just over 9". I'm doing using a Metro setup on my '68 Corona Coupe, and they BARELY clear the wheel interior, and I don't really see how one could gain an extra 1/2" in the caliper design. Here's what I'm doing on my Corona, just for reference:

 

corona_brakes_metro_swap_4-pic.jpg



#14 Pedro

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 12:52 PM

Hey Guys,

 

So I'm using the following

 

- R31 Nissan skyline rear caliper brackets - example here -> http://www.ebay.com....s-/332037041790

 

- Holden Commodore rear calipers - I believe the model of commodore is VS, they came with an internal drum handbrake setup so the calipers don't have the ratchet system like you find on most rear calipers. I'm told the pistons in these may be small, so they aren't a "performance" caliper, but they match the caliper bracket spacing & the rotor thickness. Example of caliper -> http://www.ebay.com....7-/291861544968

 

The rotors are also R31 rear skyline, the part code is DBA616 (RDA616), these part codes are for australian suppliers, but can assist you with finding the hat size, thickness etc. I'll be purchasing some new ones off ebay shortly, example here -> http://www.ebay.com....D-/281346881945

 

If I was going for performance I'd try and go for a twin piston caliper setup and make a custom caliper bracket. I still like the solid rotor though as it's good for packaging purposes and wheel fitment.

 

Thanks



#15 ]2eDeYe

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 08:40 AM

This is exciting. Do you think you could provide factory part numbers on the components so that we can see if any of these bits and pieces are available on US market cars? It doesn't seem that any of these models have US equivalents, but hopefully the parts bin knows no borders.

 

I'm very interested to see how the fit goes with the 10" rotors inside 13" wheels. The RL411 rotors are about 8.75" and the Metro/Swift rotors are just over 9". I'm doing using a Metro setup on my '68 Corona Coupe, and they BARELY clear the wheel interior, and I don't really see how one could gain an extra 1/2" in the caliper design. Here's what I'm doing on my Corona, just for reference:

 

 

 

Can you measure the ID of the rotor hat for me? I'd like to see if it would fit over the disc brake hub. Thanks :) 


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620 KA24 Motor Mount Swap Brackets

1977 620 KingCab Deluxe KA24DE Swap - Refresh and cleanup
1978 620 kingcab 4x4 - KA24E SAS w/Dana 44 front and Toyota rear

1967 RL411 Station Wagon

 

Whenever I think that I'm out of my mind for putting this much time and money into an old Datsun, all I have to do is look some of your threads to know that I'm not nearly as whack as you are.

You're going to skin a few knuckles, stand up too fast and bump your head, hunt around the floor for the nuts and bolts you dropped, invent a few new cuss words and when you're finished you'll say "That wasn't so hard after all!"


#16 jfbrink

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 09:20 AM

@]2eDeYe - The ID of the Geo Metro rotor hat is 137mm. The distance from the inner mounting surface of the hat to the inboard face of the rotor is about 44mm. The rotor is 17mm thick.



#17 ]2eDeYe

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:38 AM

Thanks :thumbup:


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**DATSUN FAQ** ~ If ya know it, post it ~ If ya don't know it, learn it ~

ratsun.net rising sun stickers                     ratsun business cards order thread

620 KA24 Motor Mount Swap Brackets

1977 620 KingCab Deluxe KA24DE Swap - Refresh and cleanup
1978 620 kingcab 4x4 - KA24E SAS w/Dana 44 front and Toyota rear

1967 RL411 Station Wagon

 

Whenever I think that I'm out of my mind for putting this much time and money into an old Datsun, all I have to do is look some of your threads to know that I'm not nearly as whack as you are.

You're going to skin a few knuckles, stand up too fast and bump your head, hunt around the floor for the nuts and bolts you dropped, invent a few new cuss words and when you're finished you'll say "That wasn't so hard after all!"


#18 Pedro

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 03:32 AM

Got some scrap tube from my friends workshop and holding the caliper on the rotor with pads installed took a close measurement of the distance between faces of the caliper and caliper bracket mount hole.

 

Then used a pipe cutter to cut the tube, repeated twice then bolted it together. Pics below;

 

 

1F7DF9C1-F194-4008-9FED-17AC27B37649_zps

9B44F815-9580-4F18-B51C-8CD5DA8DA68A_zps

B83684AD-D8BC-408E-BD8A-CD5017C45809_zps

 

Measured the distance again and came in around 22.5mm, so now getting 4 x 22.5mm spacers machined on a lathe for accuracy.

 

Early next year I'll order new rotors then get the hubs machined to suit, bolt it on the car, make some brakes lines and a push rod then see if they actually work.



#19 Pedro

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 03:33 AM

Man I just scrolled up and realised I started this in July, not sure this car will ever run in my lifetime.



#20 jfbrink

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 07:17 AM


I think if you used a flat plate for your caliper bracket, somewhere between 10-12mm thick, your life would be a lot easier. The cantilever and those spacers make me nervous.