Looking for input from people that have built real 510 race cars

[SR20DET 510]

My mistake, I also posted this in the project section.

 

So, I'm looking for information and some input from fellow 510 owners that have built legit race cars. I have 2 510's, both 2 door sedans. 

 

One is a 1973 bone stock roller, its very solid 99% rust free. The other I just bought is a 71 highly modified, SR20DET powered, rust free, this one will be mostly likely the street car.

 

I also have a stock S15 SR20DET engine and 6speed trans.

 

What I'm thinking of doing is pulling the built S13 SR out of the 71 and dropping in the stock S15 SR. 

 

That would give me basically a fun street car with 250hp (S15). The S13 makes ( or should make once tuned) 450hp, not really a street motor.

 

Anyways, my question really is, has anyone built a SR powered 510 race car and if so what classes have you raced. I'm assuming it would have to be some 

modified class (since it will have an SR). I would like to leave the door open to road, time attack and hill climb racing.

 

Is it possible to be competitive with a 510 that is SR powered in any of these events? I don't need to set any records but would like to hold my own, biggest obstacle I see is controlling 450hp (can be tuned down) with a light short wheel based car. 

 

Now please, all opinions and suggestion are welcome, just don't need to hear, go L series or buy another car.

 

It would be great to hear from people that have raced these cars and what I should watch out for and how these cars really act when pushed.

 

Thanks again

[Draker]

[docbainey]

If you want to go racing against other people, not just the clock, I believe the SCCA is the only way to go, which means 'L' power. NASA has a pretty much run what you brung rule structure but they are more time trial oriented. I don't know what's on your coast as far as competitive series other then the above.

 

Good Luck!

[racerx]

Google Troy Ermish...He is now racing Nascar.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Although I have not looked at a SCCA rule book in quite some time, the only class in SCCA that would allow such a combination would be SP or Super Production. You'd be racing against tube Chassis 700hp IMSA type cars.

 

In my experience, it all boils down to HP. To get a big enough tire to handle that kind of HP in a 510, you would need to have huge flares and 10" tires or bigger. That makes the car almost as wide is it is long, like throwing a brick down a drag strip.

 

The best attempt at a modern approach to the 510 was, hands down, Don Nimi. His car was partial tube chassis and employed some serious (for a 510) ground effects. His car was fast, for a 510, but still couldn't compete with the more modern cars on the track, and that was in GT class. Though it was beautiful trying.

 

The question you need to ask yourself is "Am I willing to be uncompetitive?" If the answer is yes, go ahead and build the 510 of your dreams, but I have never met a racer that's willing to get beat every time. The competitive spirit does not make concessions for having a cool car. You're always going to want to go faster. As the car evolves, you're eventually going to end up spending a huge amount of money on a car that you end up selling or parking in favor of a real race car.

 

If you're set on building around the engine, find a more suitable chassis. If you're set on building a 510, put some serious thought into the question I asked about your willingness to be beaten every time.

 

I would love to see another attempt at the fastest 510 ever, so personally I would love to see you throw caution to the wind and go for it.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Here's a link to Don Nimi's build of the 510.

 

http://www.pdm-racing.com/features/510part01.html

[racerx]

Never race but from people I know that drag race and even just doing fun runs at willow springs and other tracks, they talk about the cost of doing races.  Nothing is wrong with dreaming huge but also be real and look at how thick your wallet is or what is the limit on your credit cards because at the end of the day this will be the deciding factor. 

[510T]

For an SR 510 I would look to autocross, hillclimb and timeattack.  It's not wheel to wheel racing but very competitive and tons of fun.  Personally I have only been local club level autocrossing but am eager to do some hillclimbs and time attacks in the next few years.

[510T]

I think somewhere between 250 and 450 HP is what you want!  :devil:  :devil:  :devil:   

[docbainey]

Stoff, That's hot, has design ques from the late 70's BMW 3.0 CSL that was run in IMSA. Minus rear wing, rear side mounted rads, and other aero, but cool as fk

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Yeah it is a beautiful car. I love the IMSA GTU Butch Leitzenger inspired colors and graphics.

 

I think the car still exists, though maybe not in competitive race trim. He's in BC or somewhere up there.

[SR20DET 510]

For an SR 510 I would look to autocross, hillclimb and timeattack.  It's not wheel to wheel racing but very competitive and tons of fun.  Personally I have only been local club level autocrossing but am eager to do some hillclimbs and time attacks in the next few years.

Yeah that is what I'm thinking, maybe just do some open events road type racing.

[SR20DET 510]

Although I have not looked at a SCCA rule book in quite some time, the only class in SCCA that would allow such a combination would be SP or Super Production. You'd be racing against tube Chassis 700hp IMSA type cars.

 

In my experience, it all boils down to HP. To get a big enough tire to handle that kind of HP in a 510, you would need to have huge flares and 10" tires or bigger. That makes the car almost as wide is it is long, like throwing a brick down a drag strip.

 

The best attempt at a modern approach to the 510 was, hands down, Don Nimi. His car was partial tube chassis and employed some serious (for a 510) ground effects. His car was fast, for a 510, but still couldn't compete with the more modern cars on the track, and that was in GT class. Though it was beautiful trying.

 

The question you need to ask yourself is "Am I willing to be uncompetitive?" If the answer is yes, go ahead and build the 510 of your dreams, but I have never met a racer that's willing to get beat every time. The competitive spirit does not make concessions for having a cool car. You're always going to want to go faster. As the car evolves, you're eventually going to end up spending a huge amount of money on a car that you end up selling or parking in favor of a real race car.

 

If you're set on building around the engine, find a more suitable chassis. If you're set on building a 510, put some serious thought into the question I asked about your willingness to be beaten every time.

 

I would love to see another attempt at the fastest 510 ever, so personally I would love to see you throw caution to the wind and go for it.

Thanks for the info, that 510 is awesome, not flare guy but a wide body looks wicked. Yeah I don't really want to spend crazy money and get spanked, so I think time attack and hill climb would be best but I am going to look at NASA, SCCA and what other race bodies are out there.I know they are always adding classes, I would like to be different and run a 510, I could always start off with the SR and go back to an L series if I wanted to run some vintage class but that might be better just to build another car for that style of racing altogether.

[SR20DET 510]

Google Troy Ermish...He is now racing Nascar.

Thanks, I gave him a call today and he really cool to chat with, I think I am going to have him build my roll cage in the near future to begin this race car build.

[Dime Dave]

My tube frame 510 racecar. It raced in SCCA GT3 with an FIA head 2.0L L20B. The car used a Quaife sequentual shift 5 speed dog box and a Winter quick change. The header crossed over the top of the transmission and the exhaust exited on the passenger side of the car.

[docbainey]

DIme, Did you fab your own chassis? Being a tube frame you used double wishbone upfront?

 

Very cool!

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

SCCA had rules regarding suspension types and combinations. If I recall correctly, a dual a-arm front suspension was only legal with a solid axle rear. If you ran the IRS, you had to use struts up front.

 

Like I said, it's been a long time since I saw a rule book.

 

As far as vintage racing goes, Troy absolutely kills it in his black 510. His car weighs about 1800 lbs and has about 230hp from an L18. Plus, he's a great driver.

[Dime Dave]

DIme, Did you fab your own chassis? Being a tube frame you used double wishbone upfront?

 

Very cool!

Yes I built the chassis from the ground up. The rules in 1995 did not allow tube frame cars to run independent rear suspension. You could run a double a-arm front end, but there had to be a live axle in the rear.

 

The picture is of the car in GT 3 trim with wide 5 hubs and 15 inch slicks. The car was originally built for GT 4 racing. We were limited to 13 inch rims, the GT4 suspension was based on Pinto spindles and used an H190 Datsun rear. This was all upgraded when we converted the car to GT3 specification.

[Tom1200]

SR20DET 510 there is the normal time attack, autocross and track day stuff. You may well be able to run with Vintage Auto Racing Association (VARA), they have a club racer class that is essentially a catch all class. The big things they are looking for are safety related; cage, belts, fuel cell and fire system for the car. The normal drivers gear including some sort of neck restraint. Some SCCA regions have classes like ITE & RS that are an open class for cars on threaded tires.

 

One of the things I did to cut down on costs when I started was run used tires, known as take offs, I got them from John Berget tire $50-60 per tire and they were only about a second a lap slower than new tires. Sadly now days I pony up for $800 worth of Hoosiers at the beginning of the year, I'd do get 2 vintage race weekends plus 4 track days out of them before they go off.

 

Tom