Brake + CHG warning lights

[jboulukos]

The brake and CHG warning lights came on yesterday.  The braking power decreased as I noticed having to depress the pedal with more force from my foot.  The car has a 1 year old battery.  I plan to do an inspection of the brakes and master cylinder.  What are the main things to look for when inspecting the front and rear brakes as well as the master cylinder?    

[nismo dr]

I'd be checking out your alternator & voltage regulator.

[jboulukos]

I'd be checking out your alternator & voltage regulator.

to test the alternator, the  service manual suggests using a "30-Volt voltmeter and suitable test probes."  Can you recommend a voltmeter and shed some light on how to test it?

[flatcat19]

to test the alternator, the service manual suggests using a "30-Volt voltmeter and suitable test probes." Can you recommend a voltmeter and shed some light on how to test it?

Wow.

 

 

You obviously don't need to spend Fluke kind of money.

 

Go to Harbor Freight or Sears. You want a digital Auto-Ranging multimeter.

 

Turn meter to VDC. It will probably be a V with squigly lines under it.

Red leaf goes to (+) on battery. Black lead goes to battery (-).

 

Anything less than 13.2 volts, suspect bad alternator.

 

Plenty of fish videos on YouTube to help you out.

[jboulukos]

Wow.

 

 

You obviously don't need to spend Fluke kind of money.

 

Go to Harbor Freight or Sears. You want a digital Auto-Ranging multimeter.

 

Turn meter to VDC. It will probably be a V with squigly lines under it.

Red leaf goes to (+) on battery. Black lead goes to battery (-).

 

Anything less than 13.2 volts, suspect bad alternator.

 

Plenty of fish videos on YouTube to help you out.

 

Ok I did some voltage checks with an auto-ranging multimeter.

Here are the results:

 

car off: 12.7

car on but not started: 12.67

engine running: 14.32

engine running with load (radio on, wipers on, heat on high, high beam headlights on): 12.53 

 

I noticed the CHG light on and sometimes flickering as well as the engine hesitating a bit (inconsistent running sound and shake).  

I recently changed the head gasket and had to remove (then reattach and tighten) the alternator mounting arm nut due to it being attached to the cylinder head.  Could that have increased the slack in the belt and have a negative effect on the alternator?  When applying force upward on the belt with one finger, I can lift it approximately 1 cm and it seems pretty taut.

 

Any input on the results of this test?  Does it incriminate a bad alternator?  

[flatcat19]

Under load, no output-i'd throw an alternator at it. Sounds like bad diode. 

 

 

 

Remove and take to a parts house. They'll bench test it for you. 

[KoHeartsGPA]

Step 1......check ALL grounds before slapping new parts.

[jboulukos]

Step 1......check ALL grounds before slapping new parts.

 

I'm new to this.  Are you referring to continuity and ground tests of rotor coil, continuity and ground tests of stator, and continuity tests for the 6 diodes?

[KoHeartsGPA]

Make sure all ground wires are clean from corrosion and tight, check your dash cluster ground, there should be one, if bolt/screw comes loose weird things start happening, everything should be well grounded.

[jboulukos]

Make sure all ground wires are clean from corrosion and tight, check your dash cluster ground, there should be one, if bolt/screw comes loose weird things start happening, everything should be well grounded.

 

Are these "ground wires" the 3 wires attaching to the back to the alternator?  

 

[datzenmike]

Check the belt tension. It's good if you can depress the belt about 1/2" using your thumb and moderate pressure about half way between pulleys. If loose a load increases the effort to turn the alternator and the belt can slip.

 

 

 

The bolt with the Philips head on it is the ground. It's also grounded through the mounting bolts, but don't rely on this totally.

 

 

car off: 12.7

car on but not started: 12.67

engine running: 14.32

engine running with load (radio on, wipers on, heat on high, high beam headlights on): 12.53 

 

 

Try again but increase the idle speed with all the accessories on. It will likely go up near 14. This is normal. Idle has the slowest alternator speed and likely it doesn't make enough at this speed.

[Tolkmod]

The brake and CHG warning lights came on yesterday.  The braking power decreased as I noticed having to depress the pedal with more force from my foot. 

 

when pressing on the break do you hear a loud sucking sound and the idle goes down on the engine?  This was happening to my b210 and turned out it was losing vacuum, the plunger thingy (yeah, i called it a "thingy" deal with it...) that goes into master cylinder was completely blown out causing a massive vacuum leak and killing any breaking I had.  When i replaced mine (after confirming that was the problem) it not only fixed my breaks but also my idle issues as now my vacuum leak was fixed. 

 

Just figured I'd throw that out there...

[datzenmike]

Take the brake booster hose off and plug the intake, or pinch hose closed and try the idle.

 

 

There is something peculiar about the B-210, regarding the brake light. Datsunaholic mentioned it a long time ago.  The brake light will come on under certain conditions, but none are brake related. Doug???

[jboulukos]

Take the brake booster hose off and plug the intake, or pinch hose closed and try the idle.

 

 

There is something peculiar about the B-210, regarding the brake light. Datsunaholic mentioned it a long time ago.  The brake light will come on under certain conditions, but none are brake related. Doug???

 

 

Is the brake booster hose near the brake master cylinder?

 

I plan to get a new fan belt as there is no telling how long the belt has been on prior to 2009 and approximately 25K miles I have driven it.  I know belts last a long time but its an inexpensive upgrade for the piece of mind.

 

I'll do the volt testing again and all the other suggestions.  Also, I have yet to inspect the brake fluid level.  

[jboulukos]

when pressing on the break do you hear a loud sucking sound and the idle goes down on the engine?  This was happening to my b210 and turned out it was losing vacuum, the plunger thingy (yeah, i called it a "thingy" deal with it...) that goes into master cylinder was completely blown out causing a massive vacuum leak and killing any breaking I had.  When i replaced mine (after confirming that was the problem) it not only fixed my breaks but also my idle issues as now my vacuum leak was fixed. 

 

Just figured I'd throw that out there...

 

I recently switched air cleaner assembly covers, changing from a clean one (which didn't quite fully seal the top, to the original that closes down nicely.  The clean air cleaner assembly may be from an earlier or later model with the 2 prominences coming from it into pipes instead of just rubber hoses. I will attach a pic later.  Anyway, the rubber seal on the inside of cleaner lid didn't quite line up with the air filter like the original lid.  Now that I have switched them, maybe I will get a better vacuum?  Might have been a factor...

[jboulukos]

Update: I checked the brake fluid and it was within the min and max lines although the two brake master cylinder lids were quite difficult to remove.  I took off the 3 connection wires to the alternator and cleaned the metal connection sites with a wired brush.  One has a plastic surround to it so I wiped it off best I could and re-attached them.  I inspected the fan belt (picture attached) and it looks pretty cracked up so I will replace it tomorrow.  As far as the interior warning lights go...upon starting up the car, the CHG light flickers at idle.  When i give it gas, the CHG light stays on consistently and the BRAKE light comes on as well.  When the engine returns to idle, the BRAKE light is off and the CHG goes back to flickering.  The brake pedal is more than 2.2 inches from the carpet/floor so its within norm however the pedal depresses easily without much pressure/resistance perceived through the foot.

I plan to replace the fan belt tomorrow and will do the voltage test again (forgot my multimeter at my home).  Any advice on how to make certain the belt is tight enough?  Do I push the alternator with one hand and tighten the nut with the other?

 

I also replaced the fuel filter today.

Here's the old belt. 

 

[jboulukos]

when pressing on the break do you hear a loud sucking sound and the idle goes down on the engine?  This was happening to my b210 and turned out it was losing vacuum, the plunger thingy (yeah, i called it a "thingy" deal with it...) that goes into master cylinder was completely blown out causing a massive vacuum leak and killing any breaking I had.  When i replaced mine (after confirming that was the problem) it not only fixed my breaks but also my idle issues as now my vacuum leak was fixed. 

 

Just figured I'd throw that out there...

 

The 2 brake master cylinder lids were significantly difficult to remove and I believe it was due to the plunger "thingies" doing their job.  Lots of pulling and wiggling to remove the lids.

[Draker]

If the belt isn't squeaking, I'd wager my bet on.. it's tight enough.

[datzenmike]

Air filter housing has nothing to do with engine vacuum. It holds the air filter and mixes cold and warmed air.

 

Behind the master cylinder is a round black thing. This is the brake booster and it will have a thumb sized hose on it going to the intake manifold. In line is a one way valve.

[jboulukos]

Update: Added brake fluid, brake pedal has more height from floor when depressed.  

Voltage taken

 engine idling: 14.28

 with load: 12.55, increases with depression of gas pedal

 

Put on new fan belt.  The ribbed side on the inside due to V cut.  On the old belt, the ribbed side was outward as it was the widest part.  Interesting to me.

 

Voltage taken

 engine idling: 14.50, CHG light now off

 with load: 13.62

 

depressing the gas pedal turns both CHG and BRAKE lights on

 

When the car is at idle, turning on the headlights creates a continuing buzzing noise and turning on high beams increases the noise.  The noise seems to be coming from inside the black box adjacent to the battery.   

 

Detached brake booster hose and idle was noisy.  Put my hand on the hose and there was a strong vacuum pull towards the manifold.  I wasn't able to take the car for a test drive today.

 

new belt, ribbed side down

 

black box that buzzes when headlights are on

 

Oliver loves laying by the Datsun

[datzenmike]

Probably the choke heater relay buzzing. To work properly there has to be a charging alternator. I don't see a ground wire to the body from the negative terminal on the battery. Run a 12 gauge wire from that terminal clamp over to the screw that holds the black plastic box to the inner fender. If this fixes your problem make something more permanent.

 

Found it!!!.... http://community.ratsun.net/topic/24563-b210-dashboard-brake-light-indicator-stays-on/ . Choke heater and brake light are inter connected. if the choke heater isn't working (usually a non charging alternator) the brake light comes on. If the alternator IS working then the choke heater relay THINKS it isn't. Something is out of whack... maybe that ground I mentioned.

[jboulukos]

Probably the choke heater relay buzzing. To work properly there has to be a charging alternator. I don't see a ground wire to the body from the negative terminal on the battery. Run a 12 gauge wire from that terminal clamp over to the screw that holds the black plastic box to the inner fender. If this fixes your problem make something more permanent.

 

Found it!!!.... http://community.ratsun.net/topic/24563-b210-dashboard-brake-light-indicator-stays-on/ . Choke heater and brake light are inter connected. if the choke heater isn't working (usually a non charging alternator) the brake light comes on. If the alternator IS working then the choke heater relay THINKS it isn't. Something is out of whack... maybe that ground I mentioned.

 

This is fantastic information.  I have the 12 gauge wire and I will add the ground to see what happens.  

 

I just drove about 10 miles.  Since replacing the belt, the car runs a little less effortlessly(more rough).  I looked at belt tension and decided to try to push the alternator further along the mounting arm.  The thumb pressure test on the belt is about right (.5 inches depression).  The car definitely makes a whistling/new noise (different than a squeaky belt and not the buzzing noise while using the headlights).  At initial idle, the CHG and BRAKE lights are on.  After warming up, the CHG light flickers at a stop in sync with the turn signal and BRAKE light is off.  Upon accelerating, both CHG and BRAKE warning lights come on.  Once I let off the gas, the CHG light goes off, and the BRAKE light goes off and on as it pleases and doesn't necessarily remain on other than when accelerating.  The braking ability of the car seems fine, normal, unchanged.  I'm not too concerned about this.  However the CHG light bothers me as it is in conjunction with the whistle and the rough acceleration.  I'm concerned the alternator is either not on correctly or is having difficulty spinning with the belt.  Can an alternator fan lock up or develop an increased resistance to spinning?  Does the height of the alternator mounting arm play a role?...The mounting arm can pivot from the nut on the cylinder head.  Maybe the new whistling noise is the fan belt breaking in?  Either way, it doesn't seem to be running as smooth.  Almost like it has a hesitation at times.  It felt like 45-50mph was more labor for the car than usual.  Almost as if something was holding it back a bit.

When reving the engine in park, the engine sometimes will die.

 

Other symptoms that have been present before all this are as follows:

-the need to feather the gas pedal lightly when initially accelerating from a stopped position or else it will hesitate and possibly die.

-car requiring gas during initial start up or may die.

[jboulukos]

Added the 12 gauge wire and nothing changed.

[flatcat19]

Again...remove alternator and take to a parts house than can bench test the thing.

 

Just charging at specific times does not mean it is good.

 

 

Whistling noises...unplug the clip on alternator while it is making noise...what happened?

[jboulukos]

Again...remove alternator and take to a parts house than can bench test the thing.

Just charging at specific times does not mean it is good.

Whistling noises...unplug the clip on alternator while it is making noise...what happened?

Can you explain Parts House? Is it a business that sells and tests auto parts?