L20b timing

[distributorguy]

KoHearts, the difference is your advance curve in the EI distributor, not the spark.  Spark TIMING.  Again, any 2 liter 9:1 engine will run on about 12kV.  That's it.  More is not better.  12kV will burn 100% of your air and fuel.  

 

Mike, the switch to electronic ignition was mandated in 1976.  Mandated.  Most manufacturers were not ready for the implementation, despite it being planned since '72.  Prestolite and Bosch were the only manufacturers ahead of the game.  I will repeat this again.  Electronic ignitions are a stepping stone with MANY ill effects.  Real electronic ignition that works properly will be crank triggered, with individual coils at the plugs.  Short HT leads, so less RFI/EMI to disrupt the module's communication with the coil.  Every dynoo test I've been able to test points versus electronics on the dyno, points make 4-7 hp more power in a 4 cylinder engine of ANY level prep.  From a low compression street engine to winning SCCA engines, 4-7 hp gain with points.  Over and over again.  So Mike, Would you like to trade a couple of those single points distributors for a matchbox?  

[datzenmike]

Any day. I have a 710 L20B one somewhere

[banzai510(hainz)]

Rockauto.com might have tons of them

[datzenmike]

I would never go back to points. If nothing else I can just forget the ignition system. It runs by itself.

[distributorguy]

There's a big difference between a good points distributor and the destroyed crap that comes from Cardone, the "rebuilder" who supplies all auto parts stores and Rockauto.  They tumble all the parts together which damages them, then they pack the distributor full of grease so it feels rebuilt, then send it back out the door with no real work done.  Junk.  I understand why you don't want to use that.  When they are handled like they should be, and the machine work is all done properly and the advance curve modified by someone who knows how to calibrate and operate a Sun tester, then you have something.  

[/url]">http://http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/distributorguy/media/distributor_zps1nkripiy.jpg.html'>

[datzenmike]

Would never use a 'rebuilt' anything. Drove my '78 with a 'newer design' matchbox for 7 years till it wouldn't start one day. No warning. I got so used to it running perfect I drove it till the carbon button on the top of the cap wore away and fell out. Stuffed a piece of trimmed fence wire in there to get home and pulled the cap from a spare dizzy. Truly set and forget.

[distributorguy]

Would never use a 'rebuilt' anything. 

 I hope your engine never wears out.   :confused:

[banzai510(hainz)]

distributor guy

wears the bushing that wears out to get the side to side movement?

 

 

most kids now days cant figure out why theircar don't run(or in general) seen a lot of cars scrapped in the day knowing now most were ignition related proplems/head gaskets  saying I got the car for a couple hundred bucks then junked it,when Datsun were cheap.

[G-Duax]

What I haven't seen here is the fact that there are several Datsun modules, with different characteristics,

not to mention aftermarket stuff meant for GM, and possibly others.

And the fact that you don't have to use a module at all if using something like a Crane HI6, as it will take the signal directly from the reluctor.

[Draker]

I guess I am going to believe what distributor guy is saying. He seems to be in the business of them.. and well, knows wtf he is saying. Any way to improve the stock EL dizzy?

 

 

I still like the EL Dizzy because of the maintenance thing. 

[distributorguy]

The stock EI dizzy works well, but they used 2 types and a few different advance curves.  The big thing is to set it up to run 34-36 degrees of total timing, not including the vac advance.  You can add a CDI, but its totally not going to change anything unless you run very high rpms all the time.  

 

If I ever get back to assembling this thing (tomorrow?) I'll shoot pics of the bushings.  Right now they are in round bar stock form.  I may bore the housing to take a single solid bushing for better oiling.  I never liked the 2 small factory sintered steel bushings.  

[datzenmike]

I hope your engine never wears out.   :confused:

My experience is that a used original part is better (and better quality) than most available 're-built' or 'OEM' replacement parts. Often they are 'bad in the box' cheaply made Chinese 'knock offs'.

 

 

The stock EI dizzy works well, but they used 2 types and a few different advance curves.  The big thing is to set it up to run 34-36 degrees of total timing, not including the vac advance.  You can add a CDI, but its totally not going to change anything unless you run very high rpms all the time.  

 

If I ever get back to assembling this thing (tomorrow?) I'll shoot pics of the bushings.  Right now they are in round bar stock form.  I may bore the housing to take a single solid bushing for better oiling.  I never liked the 2 small factory sintered steel bushings.

 

There was the Remote Igniter style used in '78 only, and earlier years in California and the Matchbox for '79 and '80. Virtually identical but miniaturized and mounted on the side of the dizzy. Both have a duty control circuit  that sets the rate of make and break within one cycle, somewhat like the dwell on a points system. There is also a circuit that shuts off the primary current in the coil if the ignition is on but the engine not running.... a points system would over heat the coil or drain the battery if the key was left on. 

 

Of the Matchbox style there are at least two different kinds. Most use the 12-80 module but the later Maxima and zx after '81 used a modified 12-93 module with two extra terminals on the right side ( I and W). It works with the ECU to provide ignition advance and retard (I'm guessing in response to a knock sensor) Have a care, as if used with a L4 cylinder to replace the 12-80 module your ignition will retard as the engine revs up.

 

 

 

The 12-80 module is used on the 280z and easily powers it to 6,500 and more RPMs. On a 4 cylinder this would be the same as 9,700 RPMs in terms of sparks.

[KoHeartsGPA]

KoHearts, the difference is your advance curve in the EI distributor, not the spark. Spark TIMING. Again, any 2 liter 9:1 engine will run on about 12kV. That's it. More is not better. 12kV will burn 100% of your air and fuel.

 

Mike, the switch to electronic ignition was mandated in 1976. Mandated. Most manufacturers were not ready for the implementation, despite it being planned since '72. Prestolite and Bosch were the only manufacturers ahead of the game. I will repeat this again. Electronic ignitions are a stepping stone with MANY ill effects. Real electronic ignition that works properly will be crank triggered, with individual coils at the plugs. Short HT leads, so less RFI/EMI to disrupt the module's communication with the coil. Every dynoo test I've been able to test points versus electronics on the dyno, points make 4-7 hp more power in a 4 cylinder engine of ANY level prep. From a low compression street engine to winning SCCA engines, 4-7 hp gain with points. Over and over again. So Mike, Would you like to trade a couple of those single points distributors for a matchbox?

 

Fascinating...my dad loved the points dizzy, he would always tell me "best ignition system I ever worked on, simple and efficient", he made my old one that came in the original L16 my 510 came with work until I figured out the wiring for the El, I'll take some pics of it to see if you can tell me if it's original or rebuilt, according to my dad it didn't look like it ever had been touched.

[Draker]

The stock EI dizzy works well, but they used 2 types and a few different advance curves.  The big thing is to set it up to run 34-36 degrees of total timing, not including the vac advance.  You can add a CDI, but its totally not going to change anything unless you run very high rpms all the time.  

 

If I ever get back to assembling this thing (tomorrow?) I'll shoot pics of the bushings.  Right now they are in round bar stock form.  I may bore the housing to take a single solid bushing for better oiling.  I never liked the 2 small factory sintered steel bushings.  

 

 

These bushings you are making.. Do you make them to fit the current dizzy shaft, or is it one size fits all? I'm wondering if you made a stash of these.. if it's something the community could use. I'd certainly be interested in a few if they were a few bucks each.

[flatcat19]

This is all good info, but so off topic.

 

Let OP get his shitz fixed then ya'll can thread jack all you want.

[Guest 77ratsun]

Turns out the fucktard that had the car before me replaced the timing chain and it was 180° out so I just timed it and fixed it all so now I'm just waiting on the timing cover gaskets and they will be here tomorrow

[distributorguy]

Um, the timing chain is 180 out on every other revolution of the motor.  The cam turns one revolution for every 2 revolutions of the crank.  2:1 gearing.  While the distributor drive gear may have been installed 180-out, that can be rectified by dropping the external  oil pump.  

[datzenmike]

Turns out the fucktard that had the car before me replaced the timing chain and it was 180° out so I just timed it and fixed it all so now I'm just waiting on the timing cover gaskets and they will be here tomorrow

 

What distributorguy said. You can't install the chain 180 out. You could install the distributor or the head 180 out. There are two TDC for every cycle of a 4 stroke but only one turn of the cam. If exactly 180 out,  just move all the wires around two positions either way on the cap. 

[distributorguy]

But it started and ran, so it was never 180-out.  It WILL NOT start if its 180 out.  Never, ever.  Ever.  This guy simply needs professional help with a tune-up.  Call Andy Bradley at Bradley Restorations.  Tell him Jeff at Advanced Distributors referred you.  Won't be free, but it WILL run when he's done.  

[datzenmike]

Should have read farther back. Yeah, if running it could only be out of time by 5-8 degrees. 180 out it would fire on the exhaust stroke while cranking, 'cause it wouldn't start.

[banzai510(hainz)]

maybe 180 out on the dist!!!!!!!!!!!

[G-Duax]

Can't happen, it would have to be the gear off 180.

The slot on the distributor isn't centered, and can only go in one way.

[flatcat19]

Wow. This guy is obviously having a hard time.

 

 

Maybe he doesn't exactly know how to explain what was off.

 

Give him a chance to fix it. Bring on the encouragement.

 

 

We all had to start somewhere and didn't know it all when we got in to it.

[datzenmike]

First post.

Runs but hard restart
 

I need help getting the timing right on my engine, I can get it started then after I turn it off it wont start back up again I've tried about almost everything I've seen on the internet

 

Last post.

Fixed by setting the timing.
 

Turns out the fucktard that had the car before me replaced the timing chain and it was 180° out so I just timed it and fixed it all so now I'm just waiting on the timing cover gaskets and they will be here tomorrow

If it ran it couldn't have been out by more than a few degrees. OP knows what he means but said it oddly. Maybe a tooth out on the dizzy and ran out of timing adjustment.

[distributorguy]

All I got from that last post is that he moved the timing chain.  77Ratsun - did you get it running????  My guess is that its not running yet after the engine disassembly.  Call Andy Bradley.