Internet Archive's Wayback Machine combating lost Internet information

[Cardinal Grammeter]

I've been looking for various technical information regarding various Datsun components and while not limited to these searches, I'm finding incredibly informative threads, perfect answers for what I'm searching, only to find that the hosted pics and links are no longer there.

 

"... here is a great link on the subject..." ends up with a 404.

 

Ultimately every link and hosted pic will disappear from internet pages.

 

This is even true for the sites themselves.

 

So while there are lots of information out there, as time passes, the old information will disappear as people and sites do. 

 

It would be interesting to know at what rate information is being added and what rate being lost. 

 

EDIT:  Looks like they are already on it: The disappearing web: Information decay is eating away our history

 

The work of Internet Archive's Wayback Machine  is the only mechanism out there for preserving this lost information.

[Rjawm]

Or cut and paste the pertinent info to a Word document and store it forever and ever on your own home computer...

[Ratwagon1600]

This ^^^^^^^^^

 

The Internet is an amazing resource, however, sometimes stuff aint gunna stay there forever.

 

Images are one example particularly as some people (myself included) are too tight to pay for an extension on their photofucket account and end up deleting pics, or creating new accounts under a different gmail address in the hope of not paying fees.

 

These days im building my own personal archive of information gleaned from the Internet.  I backup a lot of stuff to a USB drive for redundancy purposes and the really cool stuff I want to refer to gets printed (in colour on the work printer of course).

[Cardinal Grammeter]

A lot of us are dealing with our needs.  But when we "disappear."  So will our content.

 

Of course, Wayback is pretty nifty.  I've already used it to find info from defunct websites. 

 

I was thinking of the term Prehistory and wonder if Pre or Postinternet will be adopted by future historians.

 

One thing is for sure, preinternet information is only slowly appearing.

 

I suppose it's not that different from books.  They go out of print and then some disappear.  But there is always some old First Edition out there.  If it's worth having.  So maybe it's a good thing that all the schlock on the internet will disappear the quickest.

[datzenmike]

Storing information for the future is problematic. Imagine in 1,000 years hell even right now! trying to read a floppy disc you have with known info you need. LP recordings? 8 track? cassettes? In the early '70s I worked on a Honeywell Keytape with magnetic core memory. It replaced the IBM 80 character punch card with a 1/4" of storage space on a magnetic tape. What a dinosaur by today's standards. All printed matter is slowly rotting away and degrading because of the inks and paper used in the last 100 years. Animal skins work well but not practical.

 

If storing information (electronically) for the future you must also include a machine that can 'read' it too.  

[Cardinal Grammeter]

You've got me thinking of all the punch card software that died on those punch cards.  The worth programs were brought forward to newer media.

 

I had a deck that when duplicated on an IBM 029 Keypunch, did the Inagaddadavida drum solo :frantics:

 

When I graduated with my Masters from C-MU in 1983, I got all my computer files on a big 1/2" mag tape (what were they, 8 or 9"?)

 

But trendy stuff suffers the most, when the trend is over, everything is pretty much forgotten.  For instance, supercharged R3 Studebakers.  There were a couple guys that had them running in the 120's and while there are a lot of people that would like to have one that fast, but no one knows how to do it.  (or maybe wants to is more like)  In the 70's, there was great activity in the Studebaker world.  Lots of people were driving them, collecting them, building them.  But 10 years later, they all changed hands from drivers to collectors.  And once in the hands of collectors, they became static - they were restored and then that work was done.  In the mid-70's, I took a totally filled 8' bed w/cap pickup truck load of Stude parts I didn't need but didn't have the heart to scrap to a national meet in Gettysburg, PA.  I sold every last item I brought and I did this at about 30 cents on the dollar.  For the past 20 years, you could put the same stuff out For Free and it would still be there at the end of the meet.  Kinda' sad.

 

I would think that Datsun 1200's and 510's are in that same predicament.  Probably 240Z's too.  After enough time passes, the cars will remain and most of the knowledge about them will be gone.

 

With internet loss, I'm not sure exactly what the internet is.  The ability to sell stuff worldwide through eBay revolutionized is putting it mildly collecting, hobbies, and simple commerce.  Social media, while pathetically narcissistic, opens up remote and closed areas all over the world.  I thought the internet would be the downfall of government corruption and the eroding of individual freedom, but I'm not so sure any more.

 

But one thing is for sure, the internet has changed life as we know it.  And I would shudder to think about living without the internet. 

[INDY510]

TLDR

[Cardinal Grammeter]

Yeah, I wouldn't read my shit either!

 

I type fast, read slow...

[Ratwagon1600]

You've got me thinking of all the punch card software that died on those punch cards. 

 

Not to mention the number of people that died by the use of hollerith technology for seemingly innocuous purposes.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

 

A fascinating read, and certainly on RW's reccomended reading list.

[datzenmike]

Some Nazi vehicles may have had Dunlop tires on them too. Who knows what end use a product may be used for?

[a.d._510_n_ok]

After enough time passes, the cars will remain and most of the knowledge about them will be gone.

this is exacerbated by the unwillingness of so many older folks to join the digital age. I was brought into the car hobby as a child in the early 1980s by a small group of old drag racers who had so much knowledge that was lost because it was never recorded. As they die off (I lost one last week) I begin to feel like a music archivist running around the Mississippi Delta about 1935 trying to catch a few chords on tape from some authentic, itinerant blues men who are disappearing faster than I can record them.

[Ratwagon1600]

OP mentioned the punch cards so I threw in the info about them being used by the Nazis.

 

My Happy Thanksgiving thread derailed totally Mike so it will be interesting to see where this one can now head.

 

Hell, my town now has an Ikea. Who knows what their "Swedish designed" Taiwanese manufactured stuff will do to us. Its madness I tell ya!

[Cardinal Grammeter]

It struck me today that the "situation" is far worse than I thought.

 

What really stays are books and much less newspapers - and much less the internet.

 

But going way back, what has survived from the Roman Empire?  1000 years long and not very much to show for itself.

 

I would think that 1000 years from now  - no, 100 years from now, all the information on the internet right now will have been gone for centuries.

 

In fact, it may be the more technological Man becomes, the more fleeting information may be. 

 

EXAMPLES: 

• The technology that took us to the moon in the 60's is gone.  If we would do it again, NASA would basically have to start over.  That is not to say the latest tech is not the way to go, but rather, something as monumental as that is already lost. 
• The U2 Spy plan was a "glider" version of the F104 Starfighter - a "missile with wings."  The USAF told Lockheed (Kelly Johnson) to scrap out the production tooling.  But Kelly squirrelled the stuff away and when asked to build a spy plane, he was ready to go.  The F104 "tech" was almost lost at that step.
• The SR-71 was the fastest and highest flying plane ever built and we've actually backed off of that one.  In fact the F22 and 35 might be the last manned fighter aircraft built. 

We are dropping tech like crazy.

 

But that is the nature of tech.  Old Tech is worthless.  Old News is basically worthless.  And Old Social Media is mostly worthless to start with. 

 

So ironically (maybe?) as we go "paperless," we are throwing away The Past.

 

If you want some real persistence, carve it in stone - cave drawings are still around after what, 50k years?

 

____________________

 

 

NOTE:  I'm 63 years old and have all the "old pictures" from the previous generation.  My mom's and dad's side and some in-laws too.  I don't even know who all these people are in these pics.  The generation after me will have no idea regarding most and another generation will have no idea whatsoever.  The thought of throwing that stuff away is abhorrent to me.

[MikeRL411]

Some Nazi vehicles may have had Dunlop tires on them too. Who knows what end use a product may be used for?

 

At the end of WW2 General Motors put in a war claims request for all the profits that OPEL had made after being requisitioned by the NAZI government and made to turn out vehicles for the German war machine.  They got it!

[datzenmike]

Information isn't fleeting just the storage method. The Romans didn't have much to store the information on. Carving stone is too cumbersome. Printing presses help mass produce text books but today's newsprint and pulp books are very poor quality only intended for short term use and good for maybe a couple of hundred years before decomposing. Today massive amounts of electronic storage space is cheap and abundant... the problem??? Well we said the same thing 40 years ago but what has happened is we move on to more and better mediums. If you stored valuable info on IBM punch cards 50 years ago how would you retrieve that info today??? If on floppy disc??? To store the past, it would have to be constantly retrieved and moved to the next gen storage. 

 

We don't need the tech that was used in the 60s to go to the moon today. Hell, my watch has more computing power than the LEM.

 

The SR 71 like the U2 and most or your arsenal was around for many years before it was revealed to the public. You think there isn't something that does the job better today that the SR did when it was scrapped? I had a copy of Omni magazine that had an ad for the '82 Dodge Omni (funny enough, and I owned one later) this is why I remember it. They always had kooky shit like photos of UFOs and stuff. Well in this one was a picture at night of a formation of four groups of three objects from 'Area 51'. I gave it no thought, just UFO chasers making shit up. The funny thing was they were V shaped. Didn't fit the usual oval crap. Until the stealth B-117 bomber was revealed about 5 years later. Knowing how to start a fire is only handy if in a situation that needs it. Today we would use modern means like a lighter.

[Ratwagon1600]

Information isn't fleeting just the storage method. The Romans didn't have much to store the information on. Carving stone is too cumbersome. Printing presses help mass produce text books but today's newsprint and pulp books are very poor quality only intended for short term use and good for maybe a couple of hundred years before decomposing. Today massive amounts of electronic storage space is cheap and abundant... the problem??? Well we said the same thing 40 years ago but what has happened is we move on to more and better mediums. If you stored valuable info on IBM punch cards 50 years ago how would you retrieve that info today??? If on floppy disc??? To store the past, it would have to be constantly retrieved and moved to the next gen storage. 

 

We don't need the tech that was used in the 60s to go to the moon today. Hell, my watch has more computing power than the LEM.

 

The SR 71 like the U2 and most or your arsenal was around for many years before it was revealed to the public. You think there isn't something that does the job better today that the SR did when it was scrapped? I had a copy of Omni magazine that had an ad for the '82 Dodge Omni (funny enough, and I owned one later) this is why I remember it. They always had kooky shit like photos of UFOs and stuff. Well in this one was a picture at night of a formation of four groups of three objects from 'Area 51'. I gave it no thought, just UFO chasers making shit up. The funny thing was they were V shaped. Didn't fit the usual oval crap. Until the stealth B-117 bomber was revealed about 5 years later. Knowing how to start a fire is only handy if in a situation that needs it. Today we would use modern means like a lighter.

 

Ummmm, Mike, this is very random.

 

Have you been drinking?

 

Not that I am one to judge, just asking.............

[datzenmike]

letmecheckno....

[VFR800]

Storing information for the future is problematic.

 

Not with the developments in nano tech.

[TENDRIL]

THe problem is not entirely how the info is being saved, but who and how many people wanting to retain it. People think oh well I can just google that, and so when they do the mind may or may not retain the info for much longer than the moments after reading it. I can see where people of the younger generation feel as if they don't need, or for that matter even know of physical information. You have to remember in first world countries 80% or more people have some sort of social media that follows their lives and so most of the information these days, is what bill's height score is on an app, or what his dump looked like this morning. So while we would all love to keep this old car info safe, it will most likely vanish at a accelerated rate. With newer cars pretty much not being able to be serviced by their owners people are being dumbed down and ultimately being less capable of retaining info. Philosophers and free thinkers are endangered or threatened with extinction from stupidity. I'm going to make some coffee

[datzenmike]

perish.

[datzenmike]

Not with the developments in nano tech.

 

Unless we have it now and cheaply available, 'stuff' we have today may not make it into the future.

[Cardinal Grammeter]

What gets saved?  Mostly Great Art and a little tech like Samurai swords.  It appears the mystery of Greek Fire is lost.  Or how they built the pyramids?

 

I think certain icons will persist like cars, ships, trains, buildings, etc.

 

I admit a clever mastodon trap has little value these days.

 

NOTE:  I ahve to laugh, when I graduated C-MU, in 1983, I took all my computer files home on a 7" mag tape.  (I think it was 7" but Ha Ha Ha)

[datzenmike]

Now the sum total of all mankind's knowledge is safely stored on U-Tube.

[datsunaholic]

Losing technical knowledge is an age old problem.  Take for instance the Antikythera_mechanism.

When it was lost at sea, it took 1400 years for technology of that type to ever appear again.

 

NASA still has all the plans for the Saturn V and it's engines.  Having the plans is one thing- but those rockets were pretty much all hand made, one off.  The knowledge to make those BY HAND is gone with the people that did it, but with today's technology you could replicate it with much better precision.   And you'd have to, because while the plans exist, the tooling is gone.  But with 3D imagers, folks have figured out how to make new tooling far faster than before.  When engineers decided to try and fire up part of an old Saturn V F1 engine (just the gas generator) they started by taking the engine apart- and special tools. long gone, had to be made to do so.

 

I run into that problem down at the Museum I volunteer at.  Old WWII engines used a LOT of special tools to assemble/disassemble.  Tools we don't have.  Tools that were thrown away and scrapped after the war.  We end up having to make them.  Without plans.  That;s the sad part.  The blueprints and tech data for the Allison V1710 engine were thrown into dumpsters when Rolls Royce bought Allison Aviation from GM.  Some odd bits were saved, but not much.