Starting issue with A13 - b210

[Tolkmod]

Hey guys,

 

So, been having this slight annoyance with my A13 engine in my b210.

 

When I drive for a little while, 10-15 minutes or so, then let's say I stop turn off the car and go grab a cup of coffee then come back out and try to start the car it won't fire up. Every thing sounds fine, just no fire up. This has happened pretty consistently since I bought the car.

 

I had the problem this morning and the decided to take a video of it not starting. Needless to say it started for the camera.

 

I'll upload the video when I get home, but the only difference between the times it starts and doesn't.. Is that it fires up. The sounds, smells every thing is the same.

 

Sorry if my description is very amateur and dumbed down but it's all I got lol

 

Hopefully you won't flame me... Too much ;)

 

Thanks,

Tolk

[MikeRL411]

It is better to ask a seemingly dumb question than to have to live with a dumb problem!  Hope some A13 guru can steer you to the right solution.

[datzenmike]

Engines tend to over heat before they begin cooling when shut off hot. This can cause the gas in the carb and the lines to the carb to boil over and flood the intake making re-starts difficult.

 

I would first make sure the cooling system is working at it's best. Number one is fresh clean, properly mixed antifreeze coolant in a clean rad and engine. If the coolant is over three years old (or you don't know) get rid of it. Make sure the rad has it's fan shroud. The shroud improves fan efficiency. The belt should be in good shape and properly tight. The clutch fan should turn smoothly with firm resistance by hand. If it spill free the silicone oil inside has leaked out. I doubt the '74 had this but a coolant recovery rad cap, a short length of hose and a sealed plastic container is all it takes to add this coolant saving device. Instead of coolant burping out on the ground it can be recovered, saved, and when the engine cools it will siphon back into the rad.

 

I'm at work and have to go....  

[Tolkmod]

So, I'm at my buddy's place and he ran a vacuum test at the vacuum advance and it seems like there is no vacuum at all, I Rev the motor and it just flinched a little, but still barely noticeable.

 

Any ideas where to start looking, I've done a quick visual and didn't see anything obvious.

 

Any tips?

[Tolkmod]

Ok, another update

Engine at idle has a timing of between 10 & 15 degrees advanced, if i give it any gas it jumps up to over 20 degrees advanced

[Tolkmod]

Seems we might have found the leak.  He squirted some carb cleaner around a few of the vac hoses and nothing, then on the bottom of the carb and bam, engine rev'd up.  A few more squirts to confirm and yep.  Looks like it might be the gaskets between the carb and where it mounts to the engine.  

 

From the looks of it, there are two layers, something the carb attaches to, and then that attaches to the engine.  Hard to tell which one it is, but I'm thinking about taking it apart and replacing the gaskets anyways. 

 

Anyone know how to tell what carb it is so i can try to find a gasket kit for it?

 

Here's the start and stop test i did while we were trying to diagnose it.   If you can't tell by this, maybe let me know what to look for on it so i can give you more info?

 

https://youtu.be/xFNPlTsku6s

 

Thanks!

[datzenmike]

There is a phenolic spacer under the carb to reduce heat form the intake conducting up into the carb.

 

Check the bolts are not loose on the carb first... keep it simple.

 

Is that the Hitachi carb or replaced?

 

 

The vacuum advance is not present at idle. But there is vacuum advance above idle. If no reading the diaphragm on the distributor may be leaking.

 

There are three types of ignition advance on a gas engine.

 

One is the static timing set at idle with a timing light. The advance will never be less than what the static is set at

Two is the vacuum advance. This is engine load dependent. The more load the less advance, light throttle needs more advance. This variable advance is added to the static advance

Three is mechanical centrifugal advance. This is totally RPM dependent. The higher the engine revs the more advance. Centrifugal, vacuum (if any) and static advance is all combined to provide the optimum advance for the RPM and load on the engine.

[Tolkmod]

There is a phenolic spacer under the carb to reduce heat form the intake conducting up into the carb.

 

Check the bolts are not loose on the carb first... keep it simple.

 

Is that the Hitachi carb or replaced?

 

I wouldn't even know how to answer that question Mike, I can take a bunch of pics and post them lol but that's about as far as I can go with it.

[Tolkmod]

So, I'm thinking about just getting a new carb if i have to go through tryin to mess with mine.  

 

And yes, first i'm gonna try messing around with the one i have as much as I can, but if i can't figure it out, or if it's gonna cost me anywhere near what the one below will cost, then I'm seriously thinking about buying it.

 

 http://r.ebay.com/ewGZNd

Any cons to getting the above carb setup?

 

 

Oh, and my friend wanted to ask what parts I can strip off the engine that have to do with CA smog control, now that the car doesn't require a smog, he said there should be quite a few things I can remove from the engine.

 

Thanks!

[datzenmike]

 

 

Check the bolts are not loose on the carb first... keep it simple.

 

 

Occam's Razor.

[Tolkmod]

Occam's Razor.

LOL  gotta love the simple things in life!

 

So, I had to take off the air cleaner to get to the bolts, them things be hidden.  

 

So, here's some nudes of the carb.  Hopefully you'll be able to tell what it is from these. I looked all over and couldn't find any type of model number of any kind.

 

After tightening the bolts (was a very small amount I could move them) I put everything back together and started it up.  After warming up it started to idle rather high, higher than it normally has.

 

While testing it earlier, and after the carb cleaner spray test, on my way home it did the same thing.  So i know it wasn't anything I did.  My friend thinks that the previous owner (or his mechanic) couldn't diag the vacuum leak, and so set the idle higher.  Now that it's starting to get dialed in, the idle is really high  (acting normal? like it should?)

 

I'm going to give it a few days, see how it acts and if i notice any difference.  If not, my next move is to find a gasket set for the carb, and try that.  

 

Edit:  OH!  Almost forgot, the previous owner also said that the carb had been recently rebuilt.  Not sure if that means anything, just tryin to throw out as much data as possible.

[Tolkmod]

Oh, and on a side note.   I PULLED IT APART ALL BY SELF AND PUT IT BACK TOGETHER, AND I DIDN'T KILL IT!    B)

 

WOOooOoOOo  :w00t:  :thumbup:  :thumbup:

 

lol

 

late ratz!

[Tolkmod]

Hi guys.  My name is Mike.  I am posting under tolkmod’s screenname because for whatever reason I am unable to create my own login.  I promise to make sure I say when its me posting on tolkmods login.

 

I am the guy who is helping him with his B210.  I have a long history with cars.  My dad collected European mini cars when I was a kid.   BMW isettas, Fiats, Minis, he even had a Messerschmitt.  Needless to say, I think tolkmods B210 is REALLY cool.  I have built a few cars in my time.  One was an 85 Volvo 240 with a Toyota supercharger.   It had 11:1 compression and ran 13 psi, on a 2.4 liter.   IT was a fun little car.  Now I am building a 61 Chevy Panel Truck.

 

 

Anyway, on to Tolkmod’s car.   He has a bad vacuum leak.  It is probably at the carb spacer gasket to the intake manifold, but maybe at the carb gasket right above the butterflies.   I found this with the carb cleaner test.

 

My thoughts are to unhook all the vacuum lines from the carb, and to get it to run right.   I may need to rebuild the carb for him.   Then hookup the PVC, brake booster, vacuum advance, etc.   Do this one by one until its all working right.

 

His car is a 74, and it seems to have a lot of vacuum lines it doesnt HAVE to have.  I was thinking of getting rid of some of the smog equipment.   I dont think he will get any real MPG or power out of it, but it may reduce the chance of vacuum leaks.   

 

Does the car really need more than a vacuum line to the dist, and one to the power brake booster?  Maybe Choke??

 

Where can I get a real manifold VAC signal?   Apparently the dist is on a timed vacuum port.

 

Also, where should the timing and idle be Ideally?  I assume about 10 degrees advances at 800 RPM?  

 

What kind of vacuum should these motors make at idle?

 

Is there only one idle mixture screw?  Whats a good baseline to start from screwed all the way in?  Generally I would start with 3 complete turns out, and up the idle until the car runs.   Then tune the carb for the most vacuum.    But I may be way off on this car.

 

Thanks for any feedback.  You guys have some VERY cool cars, and I can tell there is ALOT of good info here.

[B210GX]

"Anyway, on to Tolkmod’s car.   He has a bad vacuum leak.  It is probably at the carb spacer gasket to the intake manifold, but maybe at the carb gasket right above the butterflies.   I found this with the carb cleaner test"

 

 

Nail on the head... yes the base plate does come loose often. If I remember correctly there are 3 fasteners. One of which you will have to remove the carb to tighten. That one I know for sure.

 

 

Good Ruck

 

 

Mike

[Tolkmod]

Thanks for the reply!  We will check that first.  Worst case, I have some form-a-gasket.  This is MIKE, not Tolkmod...

[Tolkmod]

Tolk here...

 

So, awesome story for you from my wonderful drive to work.

 

Got in my car happy with the knowledge that I had done something mechanical to my car and not broken it, but awesomely enough I had seemingly made it slightly better!

 

Headed out and about 3 blocks away I hear this loud chime 4 times. I look around, no engine light, every thing looks okay, engine even sounds and is running okay but now I'm freaking out a little. A few more blocks and it hits again, now super freaked. I try seeing if there are any patterns to the chimes, like a certain speed, or rpm, or if it happens when I stop at a light. Anything that would clue me in. There is nothing, just the consistent 4 chimes every few minutes.

 

So, I get to work, engine seems to be running well still, only the chime alerting me to a possible issue. So i turn off my engine and wonder what it could be. The chime hits again, 4 times just like all the other times.

 

It was my freaking phone. We've been testing different fire alarm chimes at my work and I had them on my phone so we could play them in different hallways and such to see how they sound.

 

I started laughing (one of those Holy crap everything is OK now laughs) out loud in the parking lot. It echoed so loud I scared the crap out of one of a lady parked a few stalls down.

 

So, that was my morning. Hope you all had a better one lol

 

-Tolk

[datzenmike]

Instead of removing all the hoses, just replace or inspect them.

 

Yes they are all there for a reason. Yes it will need vacuum advance and the vacuum line to the brake booster. If an automatic, it will need the hose down to the transmission. The charcoal canister also needs to be connected and working. PCV absolutely! Also the hoses to the air filter to work the thermostatically controled flap gate in the snorkle and the hot idle compensator. There is hose for the choke unloader.

 

Distributor vacuum advance is NOT intake vacuum. It is generated by a port just above the throttle plate. There is no vacuum advance at idle but as the throttle plate rises intake vacuum is slowly applied to this port and to the advance. Some year,s the vacuum signal goes to a thermal switch on the thermostat housing. It's an air bleed that destroys the vacuum signal. When the engine warms up this bleed closes and vacuum can then pass on to the distributor. This system allows no vacuum advance when the engine is cold and only when it is warmed up. The same is true for the EGR system.... a ported signal and sometimes a thermal valve. Neither vacuum advance or EGR lines use direct intake vacuum so they cannot affect it if leaking 

 

 

Keep simple... the carb gasket it likely the problem. Don't confuse it by removing stuff.

[Tolkmod]

Datzenmike;  Thanks for taking the time to write that reply!     This is Mike BTW.

 

Once we replace the carb base gasket, where should the timing be set at idle?  And what RPM should the idle be ideally?

 

Is there a good place to get actual manifold vacuum?  To hook the vacuum gauge to...

[datzenmike]

The B-210 will have a vacuum brake booster. That fitting on the intake nmay have a capped off port for the auto transmission.  

 

There is also a line to the air filter from the intake and one to the charcoal canister, both connected to the intake.

 

A good engine should have 18-20 in. Hg.

 

Ask an A series owner what the timing is 8-10??? maybe? 

[Tolkmod]

Perfect.  Thanks!   This is Mike.

[Dguy210]

The B-210 will have a vacuum brake booster. That fitting on the intake nmay have a capped off port for the auto transmission.

 

There is also a line to the air filter from the intake and one to the charcoal canister, both connected to the intake.

 

A good engine should have 18-20 in. Hg.

 

Ask an A series owner what the timing is 8-10??? maybe?

Stock Timing is 5btdc but 8-10 workd well also. I don't remember the '74 having a charcoal canister, but I'd have to check the shop manual when I get home.

[Tolkmod]

Mine is a 4 speed manual transmission

[Tolkmod]

Just a quick update, the engine has been running better since I tightened up the bolts on the carb.  Still not fantastic, but there's a noticeable difference.  

There's almost no more roller coaster idle, and I haven't had any trouble restarting it after driving, and stopping for a while and then restarting it.  

So I'm pretty positive we're on the right track.  I've ordered a $20 carb rebuild kit, comes with all the gaskets i need, so i figured why not.  It's only $20 for a little insurance.  The only experience I've had with gaskets (took off an oil pan on my original 710 because it was leaking like crazy) wasn't a good one.  When i was pulling it off it pretty much got torn to shreds, and took me two days to track down another gasket for it.  So, this time I'm going to have a backup, JUST IN CASE!  lol

[datzenmike]

A vacuum leak will cause the engine to run slightly lean. A previous owner may have adjusted the carb to compensate for this and it may need to be set back to the original.

 

When the valves are properly set and timing correct adjust the idle to about 750-850. Unplug the vacuum advance... it shouldn't affect this but without a tach you may be revved up high enough for the vacuum advance to confuse the readings. Get idle as low as you can.

 

Turn idle mixture screw in until idle quality drops, turn the other direction until idle quality drops. There will be a full turn where it improves so just pick a place in the middle where it revs up and becomes smoother. Turn idle speed back down. Adjust the idle mixture in and out and find the middle of the smoothest idle position Turn idle speed back down. Repeat until you cannot improve the idle speed and quality. This is now your correct idle mixture. It only affects IDLE and has nothing to do with actual running when driving. Re-connect your vacuum advance hose.

 

Valves that are too tight or incorrect ignition timing can affect the idle mixture setting so check them first.

[Tolkmod]

SO!

 

Small... okay no it's a huge update.

 

FOUND THE LEAK!   Blown240 and I were taking (Edit: taking OFF, not apart) the carb to reseal or replace (only resealed it btw, it was in great condition) the gasket that ya'll were talking about above.

 

When we had it about 90% of the way off I noticed one of the smaller tubes hooked up to the T had a massive crack in it, but it was a crack you couldn't see unless you actually bent the tube. It was rather frustrating.

 

Anyways, we resealed up the gasket, with some of his nice glue, thanks buddy! :thumbup:   I cut and replaced all of the smaller diameter tubing (the larger stuff I'll replace soon as well). Then, after some serious study of the "before" picture I was able to route all the vacuum tubes to their correct homes and now the thing purrs like a kitty on top of a warm CRT.  

 

There's still some idle jumping, but no where NEAR what it use to be.  

 

 

Next, we move on to the electronic points conversion, and work on the timing issues.

 

WOOT!  PROGRESS!