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Rack and pinion exploration. Building a bolt in conversion


Icehouse

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Hi Jeff and others,

I have been playing with the idea of utilizing a constant velocity joint in the steering system.  After reading papers on commercially developed constant steering joints I found that this has already been explored.  However I have not been able to find a vehicle in production that has a CSJ.  I was going to give up but then I found a company who makes CV joints and started a conversation about what it would take to make my own.  This system should simplify the steering routing by only using one joint and also eliminate torque fluctuation. 

The rep I spoke with tells me this joint has been used for steering application in the past with success.  I just need some input to see if this thing can fly.  

 

Jeff what I need to know is:

The degrees between the steering column shaft and the rack and pinion input shaft if their lengths were to meet 

The distance from the rack's input shaft and the vertex where it would meet the steering column.

Clearance at the vertex (the joint i am considering has a 75mm outer diameter)

 

Cost of the joint without machining is about $100

What do you guys think?

17359425_10156035912284368_3647422206392

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Interesting idea GreenPinch. 
As-is, a single CSJ would not be a full solution. The problem is that if you draw a center line through the rack shaft and through the column, they never intersect. 
The two axis are off set.

1_1.jpg 2_1.jpg 3.jpg

 

I thought maybe the rack could just be rotated to force the two axis to cross but, doing this only makes them cross about 4 inches past the firewall.
I'm afraid since the rack shaft angle is unchanging and the steering column angle is unchanging, a single joint just can't work.
For fun, the angle they would meet at is about 36 degrees.

Two of those joints would be awesome though!

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Thanks for the info VW! I was really wondering if the axis ever met.  After further reading and understanding of ball type cv joints, I have decided to not peruse using a standard cv joint because of backlash issues associated.  Possible solution aside from the offset axis is to use another type of constant velocity joint like this design from Martin Gecík on YouTube

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  • 3 months later...

So my rack is in, I've driven in the car, drove it myself. I've been meaning to send out my impression of Jeff's kit for a while, and the only thing I can say is Holy Mother of God, What an Improvement. So crisp and responsive it feels like I'm cheating. Very point and shoot feel with a much lighter wheel at speed, and no detectable bump steer at all. That may have to do with my ride height, but I'm a good 2-3" lower than stock. In late August we're taking the car to Sonoma Race Way to really air it out and I will shoot plenty of video.

 

I believe mine was one of the first outside attempts to do this conversion, so with very little documentation on the how to part there was a steep learning curve. Because of my limited skill and knowledge and the impatience of my fabricator I think my project exposed the need for clarity in the instal instructions, and parts list. In all fairness though, there really is no one size fits all kit for something this. No matter what it's a custom job with variables in the motor, different mounts, exhaust manifold, turbo position, down pipe, and plumbing. Even without the steering box, it's still damn tight up in there. We had to work through some parts sourcing for the shaft, bearings sleeves, how to assemble everything. etc. But throughout, as you would imagine, Jeff was kind patient and helpful. I'm looking forward to seeing how those trailing arms work out. I have a rear X member in my garage just waiting. 

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So as I mentioned I did some time behind the wheel testing with the rack and my brother took some video. Unfortunately the camera wasn't running for 90% of the time. Did some skid plate tests, set out a few markers, and got seriously out of shape out of a few corners. Had a blast. Here's just the the start.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7rRcWAPIYI

 

And here's me all warn out. After about 15 min, I was literally spent. Shitty way to end it, but...

 

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  • 6 months later...

More updates.  We just made a new version.  You can check out the details on the sight.  JBcoachwerks.com for those of you who are new.  For fun here are some photo's of the sheet metal parts coming in and being put together.  

 

1DzKmbF.jpg

 

 

sODMoJj.jpg

 

59lNxUW.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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The Version 3 looks amazing. Let's hope Sam moves forward with this:)

 

It is encouraging to see your little company forge ahead with development of these R&P units.

I bet this setup takes all the "old" out of driving a 510 and brings the experience right on par with motoring along in a contemporary sportscar.

 

Nice ride. Nice handling!

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That and a fuel injected motor and its pretty close if not better. Jeff's performance against contemporary sport cars on the track is a testament to this.
I was looking at the possibility of the 521 conversion the other day, It's a whole new packaging problem that's for sure.

 

The Version 3 looks amazing. Let's hope Sam moves forward with this:)

 

It is encouraging to see your little company forge ahead with development of these R&P units.

I bet this setup takes all the "old" out of driving a 510 and brings the experience right on par with motoring along in a contemporary sportscar.

 

Nice ride. Nice handling!

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I have an extra RHD MR2 rack to in my sunny eventually.  Even though it only had around 35k on it when I got the truck is still feels like garbage when compared to my 510 with the rack.  

 

 

Jeff do you have any plans for a B110 version? 

 

Or would this mount on already with minimal mod to the car?

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  • 9 months later...

I’m in the process of installing a supercharged VG from a 2003 Nissan Exterra in my wife’s 1971 4 door Datsun 510.

The car has been upgraded to 280ZX front struts and brakes with 1” bumpsteer spacers.

Im very inntested in your rack and pinion set up for a power steering.

Im thinking I’ll need the crossmember, steering column kit, and motor mounts. Possibly the DIY mounts since I want to mount the motor as low as possible.

Anything else you can think of?

I know you don’t supply the rack or the tie rod ends but would appreciate your input on the correct parts to locate.

I will also have to convert to front sump. What is your recommendation for that?

Thank you,

Rob

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On 12/21/2018 at 12:08 PM, vetteguy22 said:

I will also have to convert to front sump. What is your recommendation for that?

Thank you,

Rob

 

I used bits from a Quest since you can still buy the pans new. 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Oil-Pan-For-1993-2002-Mercury-Villager-1994-2002-Nissan-Quest/282920429296?fits=Model%3AQuest|Make%3ANissan&hash=item41df5f26f0:g:XiQAAOSwFBhazfLh:sc:FedExHomeDelivery!76017!US!-1:rk:6:pf:0

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11 hours ago, vetteguy22 said:

Thanks for the link to the pan.

 

Also wasn't too tough to find a pickup tube in the junkyard. And being FWD, those pans are super easy to take off.

 

I actually got lucky and found one with the pan already off. Apparently something in the vehicle design makes these pans hang just a bit too low in the Quest and they get dented often. Hence why they are cheap and plentiful new.  ?

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 11:07 AM, vetteguy22 said:

Datsun freak,

what motor, trani set up are you running in your car?

 

VG33E from a Pathfinder, modified D21 intake to use a Holley 2bbl carb, modified L28E distributor, Z31 5spd trans.

 

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 11:07 AM, vetteguy22 said:

im guessing you converted to rack and pinion also. How did you configure it?

 

I did not. I went front sump so the engine could be a little lower and a bit farther back. Also, it was easier to modify the crossmember for front sump than to custom build an oil pan for rear sump.

 

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 11:07 AM, vetteguy22 said:

any pics would be great.

 

Sorry, but that was 3 laptops ago.   :)

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3 hours ago, datsunfreak said:

 

VG33E from a Pathfinder, modified D21 intake to use a Holley 2bbl carb, modified L28E distributor, Z31 5spd trans.

 

 

I did not. I went front sump so the engine could be a little lower and a bit farther back. Also, it was easier to modify the crossmember for front sump than to custom build an oil pan for rear sump.

 

 

Sorry, but that was 3 laptops ago.   ?

 

 

I am going rack and pinion with the front sump. I looked at using the stock steering but couldn’t see how I could get the exhaust in with the steering box in there. What exhaust are you using?

Rob

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  • 2 weeks later...
On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 4:58 PM, vetteguy22 said:

 

 

I am going rack and pinion with the front sump. I looked at using the stock steering but couldn’t see how I could get the exhaust in with the steering box in there. What exhaust are you using?

Rob

 

200SX exhaust manifolds and custom made down tubes. The S12 200SX manifolds are the only ones that clear the box (aside from aftermarket headers). And the left side still has to be modified slightly, depending on engine location.

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10 hours ago, datsunfreak said:

 

200SX exhaust manifolds and custom made down tubes. The S12 200SX manifolds are the only ones that clear the box (aside from aftermarket headers). And the left side still has to be modified slightly, depending on engine location.

 

 

Thanks for the info.

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