HELP! KA24DE Into '73 Datsun 510

[jacob80]

Hey guys,

 

I know this has been done many times before, but I have a unique situation.

 

I have a 1973 Datsun 510 with a 240z crossmember and rack and pinion setup. The previous owner installed a Small Block Chevy and mated it with the stock Datsun transmission. This has since been removed. He did a bunch of custom firewall work to allow proper fitment of the 350 bell housing bolted to the Datsun transmission.

 

 

Currently, I'm working to swap a KA24DE into the car, but I'm having trouble deciding how to approach the oil pan clearance situation. For the motor mounts, I plan on simply building the mounts on top of the 240z crossmember similar to the factory mounts...no big deal. However, I have yet to see someone put a KA24DE into a 510 with the 240z rack and pinion setup installed.

 

I am using the Techno Toy Tuning transmission crossmember to mount the stock KA transmission in the car.

 

I need your help! What is the best way to go about modifying the oil pan to clear the crossmember/rack? I could completely cut the flange off and make a sheet metal oil pan, or I could somehow extend the oil pan in front?

 

I'm also wondering if the motor sits too far forward using the Techno Toy Tuning crossmember? It appears that a lot of other motors are ~1-2" from the firewall, as mine looks to be much further than that? 

 

All of this is very confusing. I will provide measurements in the coming days, just want to get your guys' initial thoughts on this situation.

 

 

 

 

[flatcat19]

Use a truck block. 

 

 

Search flipped cross member. 

[datzenmike]

Use a truck block. 

 

 

Search flipped cross member. 

 

A truck DE block would have a rear sump pan but the pan won't fit a car DE block.  Looks like lots of room at the back of his for extending the sump and pick up tube. This is what I would do. Build the pan deeper at the back.

 

 

It has a 240z crossmember and front R&P steering so flipping and welding the X member is out.

[flatcat19]

OR>>>> Just find a 510 cross member. Rack and pinion is over rated. 

[jacob80]

I'm definitely going to use the rack and pinion that's on the car, and I'm also using the block I have since it's already been machined and I've spent a pretty penny getting it prepped.

 

Once again, my main concern right now is ensuring the correct placement of the engine from front to back. I'm told to push the engine as far back into the firewall as possible, but I'm restricted to where my engine is placed by my Techno Toy Tuning transmission crossmember. For those of you who have run this, did you have any issues with the motor being too far from the firewall?

 

And it sounds like everyone agrees to build a rear sump oil pan?

[datzenmike]

The transmission cross member positions the 71C 5 speed in the stock location for a 510. Bolt the engine to it and that's where it belongs. If you see space to move it to the rear to change the front rear weight bias, then modify the trans cross member back and set the engine mounts accordingly.

[jacob80]

The transmission cross member positions the 71C 5 speed in the stock location for a 510. Bolt the engine to it and that's where it belongs. If you see space to move it to the rear to change the front rear weight bias, then modify the trans cross member back and set the engine mounts accordingly.

 

I can only assume you're referring to the stock 510 crossmember?

 

I am installing a 1993 KA24DE and matching KA24DE transmission into this 1973 Datsun 510. I purchased the Techno Toy Tuning crossmember (https://technotoytuning.com/nissan/510/datsun-510-universal-transmission-mount) in order to bolt my KA24DE transmission into my 510. Would there, for any reason, be an issue with the positioning of the engine in the engine bay? If so, this would mean the Techno Toy Tuning crossmember is useless to me...

 

[datzenmike]

I have a 1973 Datsun 510 with a 240z crossmember and rack and pinion setup.

 

If you had a stock 510 front cross member the trans mount will position the KA properly. You have a 240z crossmember... apples and oranges.

[jacob80]

If you had a stock 510 front cross member the trans mount will position the KA properly. You have a 240z crossmember... apples and oranges.

 

I'm not worried about where the engine will land on the 240z front crossmember. What I'm worried about is the distance between the back of the motor and the firewall. The front crossmember I use is totally irrelevant.

[nismo24096]

If you had a stock 510 front cross member the trans mount will position the KA properly. You have a 240z crossmember... apples and oranges.

[jacob80]

 

If you had a stock 510 front cross member the trans mount will position the KA properly. You have a 240z crossmember... apples and oranges.

 

 

Can you add something to this discussion?

 

I'll be taking measurements and posting them here. Can anyone else provide their measurements for firewall-to-engine clearance? I'd be curious to know.

 

Thanks!

[Seansm10]

Dude. Just line up the ka where you want/ need it. Wherever the trans ends up is where it will be. You bought the wrong tranny xmember for your application. If holes don't line up break out the welder or send the car to a shop that does fabrication.

 

You're sidestepping direct answers from extremely knowledgable people. You can't just throw random parts at a car and hope it's all gonna work

[datzenmike]

I think the 240z X member came with the car and he's just making use with what he has.

 

Again secure the transmission with your teknotoy crossmember and bolt the engine to the transmission. According to the link it's designed to position a KA24DE engine and transmission in a 510. Where ever the engine ends up, is where it goes.

 

Now as the firewall looks tampered with to fit a Chebby engine, I suppose you could position the engine and transmission farther to the rear. You will have to instal the engine and transmission in place temporarily and measure the engine to firewall clearance. This was a custom Chebby swap so no one can know what the clearance is or even if there is extra. IF, there is extra clearance and, YOU decide to move everything back then you will need to break out the welder and modify that trans mount. Or use it to make another and sell it.

 

You can place the engine where ever you like but keep at least one inch away from anything for engine/trans movement.

[jacob80]

Dude. Just line up the ka where you want/ need it. Wherever the trans ends up is where it will be. You bought the wrong tranny xmember for your application. If holes don't line up break out the welder or send the car to a shop that does fabrication.

 

You're sidestepping direct answers from extremely knowledgable people. You can't just throw random parts at a car and hope it's all gonna work

 

Excuse me? Explain to me how a part specifically designed to put a KA24DE transmission into a Datsun 510 is the wrong transmission crossmember, because if it is, that's an issue on Techno Toy Tuning's end - NOT MINE. And when did I ever say a damn thing about holes not lining up? Sidestepping? How in any way shape or form am I avoiding any kind of information or suggestions the members in this thread have given me? Let's break this down for you:

 

• flatcat19: Use a truck block. Search flipped cross member. 

 

My take on this: I will be using the 240sx S13 block. I've searched flipped crossmember, and on top of that this is a 240Z crossmember with a rack bolted to it, so whether you flip it or not, the rack is going to interfere.

 

• datzenmike: A truck DE block would have a rear sump pan but the pan won't fit a car DE block.  Looks like lots of room at the back of his for extending the sump and pick up tube. This is what I would do. Build the pan deeper at the back. It has a 240z crossmember and front R&P steering so flipping and welding the X member is out.

My take on this: Very respected member and very solid advice - I do agree with building a rear sump pan. Mike also observes my rack and pinion setup and agrees that regardless of whether or not I section and flip the crossmember, the rack is still an issue.

 

• datzenmike: The transmission cross member positions the 71C 5 speed in the stock location for a 510. Bolt the engine to it and that's where it belongs. If you see space to move it to the rear to change the front rear weight bias, then modify the trans cross member back and set the engine mounts accordingly.

My take on this: Mike explains that the stock 510 transmission crossmember will place theS13 transmission (71C = S13 KA24DE 5 speed transmission) where it should be. This may be worth trying, however once again, I have purchased the Techno Toy Tuning transmission crossmember in order to avoid modifying my factory 510 mount and I've read that the Techno Toy Tuning mount is a solid piece and others have had great experiences using it in their 510's. Not only this, but as you can see from the photo I posted of the mount and transmission in the car, the mount will actually move the transmission further to the rear of the car, which is perfect!

 

And so on and so forth...

[jacob80]

I think the 240z X member came with the car and he's just making use with what he has.

 

Again secure the transmission with your teknotoy crossmember and bolt the engine to the transmission. According to the link it's designed to position a KA24DE engine and transmission in a 510. Where ever the engine ends up, is where it goes.

 

Yes, I have done this, as you can see in the photo in the original thread.

 

What I think is happening is kind of an optical illusion as far as the firewall-to-engine clearance is concerned. Like I mentioned, the previous owner stuffed a small black Chevy into the car and hacked up the firewall to create more room in order to use the SBC bell housing. The makes the clearance between the firewall and the engine even greater.

 

So unless I absolutely have to move the engine back to close that gap, I think it's good where it is. I'd just like a little confirmation :) 

 

Thanks!

[datzenmike]

 

The slots in this crossmember are to allow for variances the creep into any car. It's a designed in 'wiggle room' to make mounting and hook up a little easier. Looks like you could slide everything back an inch.

[flatcat19]

Maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way-but...you are using a 240Z x-member. 

 

That would make the mounts attach to the block leaving 2 cylinders fore and aft. 

Where as the 510 x-member would only put a single cylinder fore and aft. 

 

So when you put your KA on the 240 member you will be moving the motor further forward than intended. 

510 member would put it where it should be with the ability to use your T3 trans x-member. 

 

I'm pretty sure T3 made that piece using a 510 member in place, not the 240Z's; which would force the motor further forward than wanted/needed. 

THIS is causing your mount to be irrelevant. 

 

 

 

You are kind of pioneering this exposition. Get off the defense. People are trying to help and you're snapping at them.

You are asking things that don't normally come up with the combination of parts you are set on using. 

 

Again, these guys are really just trying to help. 

[jacob80]

Maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way-but...you are using a 240Z x-member. 

 

That would make the mounts attach to the block leaving 2 cylinders fore and aft. 

Where as the 510 x-member would only put a single cylinder fore and aft. 

 

So when you put your KA on the 240 member you will be moving the motor further forward than intended. 

510 member would put it where it should be with the ability to use your T3 trans x-member. 

 

I'm pretty sure T3 made that piece using a 510 member in place, not the 240Z's; which would force the motor further forward than wanted/needed. 

THIS is causing your mount to be irrelevant. 

 

 

 

You are kind of pioneering this exposition. Get off the defense. People are trying to help and you're snapping at them.

You are asking things that don't normally come up with the combination of parts you are set on using. 

 

Again, these guys are really just trying to help. 

 

If I'm not taking someone's advice, please call me out because I'd like to hear from each and everyone one of you and take your input into consideration.

 

At any rate...let me explain this with pictures, because I feel perhaps I've mis-worded something along the way.

 

 

Notice in all 3 Figures, the front crossmember (the one that resides on the bottom side of the engine) is irrelevant to where the engine sits in the engine bay relative to the firewall. The only thing that matters is the mounting point of the transmission - this decides where your engine will sit in your engine bay. My question is...using the Techno Toy Tuning transmission mount in the orientation I plan on using it (Figure C), should I be worried about the position of the engine in the bay or should I call Techno Toy Tuning and notify them that their crossmember doesn't position the engine where it should be?

[flatcat19]

Again...their mount was not designed with a 240Z xmember in the equation. 

The problem is not their fault. 

 

You will need to make a custom trans mount. That's it. 

 

 

My bigger concern would be engine orientation. Trans placement last.

[datzenmike]

Well it looks to me like you can have the transmission mount facing either direction. C will move the trans and engine to the rear. A would be more forward. Tell the truth, I don't know which is the intended use position for the TT trans mount for the 510... could be A.

 

Install the engine with the trans mount like A and look at the clearance between engine and firewall. If you have enough clearance (looks like 5" or more) and want to move it back, then position like C.

 

 

I assume you want the engine as far back against the firewall as you can?

[jacob80]

Mike you got it! The 240z front crossmember does not dictate where the motor will sit, it's totaly irrelevant to the problem at hand. The only reason I brought that up is to address the oil pan issue.

 

I think I'm going to go with position C full steam ahead.

[Icehouse]

T3 trans crossmember is a ripoff of Dave Carrol's "universal" crossmember.  The difference is Dave actually knows his shit and tells you there are actually 4 possible mounting variations.  T3 just exploited that fact that Dave gets behind on building them and started making their own.  You've missed two mounting variations!  If you flip the isolator 180* it can sometimes help, it's a small adjustment.  If you look at the stud that goes through the T3 crossmember vs the two mounting holes on the trans side of the isolator its offset in one direction.  Furthermore are you 100% sure your car is a 73?  Because 70 auto's it won't fit, they are a crossover year.  I've install a dozen Dave Carrol trans crossmember.  Sometimes I bring them to work and put them in the mill to add a bit of travel if I need it.  

 

I'd keep the rack and pinion, it's far superior if installed correctly.  It takes a 510 from feeling like a 40 year old car to making it feel like a modern car thats loud and has a lot of rattles haha

 

As for the oil pan...  The truck pan will bolt in EXCEPT at the timing cover area.  You could cut and splice the car pan on.  The other issue is the car has a crank girdle which hits the truck pan.  With a big hammer you can fix that problem.  That's how we've done it.  I would just take your car one and build a kick ass pan using part of it.  

 

I like the firewall, makes me kinda dizzy :) 

[jacob80]

T3 trans crossmember is a ripoff of Dave Carrol's "universal" crossmember.  The difference is Dave actually knows his shit and tells you there are actually 4 possible mounting variations.  T3 just exploited that fact that Dave gets behind on building them and started making their own.  You've missed two mounting variations!  If you flip the isolator 180* it can sometimes help, it's a small adjustment.  If you look at the stud that goes through the T3 crossmember vs the two mounting holes on the trans side of the isolator its offset in one direction.  Furthermore are you 100% sure your car is a 73?  Because 70 auto's it won't fit, they are a crossover year.  I've install a dozen Dave Carrol trans crossmember.  Sometimes I bring them to work and put them in the mill to add a bit of travel if I need it.  

 

I'd keep the rack and pinion, it's far superior if installed correctly.  It takes a 510 from feeling like a 40 year old car to making it feel like a modern car thats loud and has a lot of rattles haha

 

As for the oil pan...  The truck pan will bolt in EXCEPT at the timing cover area.  You could cut and splice the car pan on.  The other issue is the car has a crank girdle which hits the truck pan.  With a big hammer you can fix that problem.  That's how we've done it.  I would just take your car one and build a kick ass pan using part of it.  

 

I like the firewall, makes me kinda dizzy :)

 

THANK YOU ICEHOUSE! This is an EXTREMELY helpful piece of information! Hats off to you! :D

 

I'm certain the car is a 1973 - I have the title in hand! That's a good point on the isolator - I'm using a 240z one and you're right...it can go both ways and depending on which, it'll bias the motor forward or backward (probably only a 1/2", if that).

 

I, too, would like to maintain the rack and pinion setup, most definitely!

 

I will go ahead and lop off everything from the pan flange and build a custom pan, that seems the be the best option.

 

Yes, the firewall makes my eyes burn....grrr, poor 510! I guess this will give me some room to work on the back of the engine.

 

Thanks for all your guys' help! I think my questions have been answered :)

[Icehouse]

73's have an extra bumper bolt hole/weld nut in the frame rail.  Does your have that?  Not that I don't believe you I've just notice over the years that a title year doesn't always match the car year.  The back tray above the rear seat looks weird on 73's as well.  

 

 

Glad I could help!  

[ppeters914]

[snip]

 

I'd keep the rack and pinion, it's far superior if installed correctly.  It takes a 510 from feeling like a 40 year old car to making it feel like a modern car thats loud and has a lot of rattles haha

 

 

Hmmm......wonder if that would work in my 411 wagon?

 

Interesting thread!