Questions for you all on a 521 landspeed project

[wayno]

You can make anything go fast, but should you?

The 521 just doesn't look like that type of vehicle, it's not aerodynamic, it has a big ole face on it.

I personally don't know anything about what your trying to do, but if I were going to try and go fast in a Datsun truck, I would pick the 1200 UTE with a turbocharged rotory, or an electric version, I am fairly sure that 150mph could be done fairly quickly, but I just don't know after that, and I am not sure that I would even try on the salt flats, for some reason, driving very fast on wash boards/wash board surfaces doesn't sound appealing to me

[datzenmike]

Well I guess the next question is how much can you modify the body?

[XXL]

This is an entertaining discussion, but it is not a trivial matter to actually execute.

 

There are two things that keep a vehicle from moving forward-- drag and rolling resistance.  It takes close to 350 hp just to overcome the drag at 200.  You also need some actual horsepower to overcome the rolling resistance too.  Here's a basic calculator to get you started-- http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php.  Note: the Cd of a Datsun pickup is probably similar to a dumptruck, which is not even close to the .34 the above calculator defaults to.  Watch what happens when you ratchet that variable value up.  A 2014 Chevy Silverado Cd is 0.41, and was achieved using engineering computing power greater than what Datsun could have possible imagined in their wildest dreams 50 years ago.  Some other examples-- VW Beetle is 0.48, H2 Hummer is 0.57, and so on...

 

 

After all that, horsepower is a trivial matter in comparison to vehicle stability.  While you'll have to work out aerodynamics (to the extent the class allows, or you may plan to cheat there too) to help you with that drag issue, you also need some pretty well planned aerodynamics to keep you from dying.

 

[Charlie69]

I miss read the title.  I thought it read Landscape Record!  I think Denmarkboy would win the 521 Landscape award!  LOL

[ATP]

XXL, you are kind of downer man, that's a pretty negative mentality to be carrying. We are not planning to cheat anything. We plan to work with the inspector because nobody wants to put time, money and resources into something if it doesn't even pass tech. There are lots of ways to be within the rules and we plan to make sure we are.

 

You guys need to remember, we are not racing in a class against streamliners. We are talking about other mini trucks. In those terms the 521 is actually a good choice. It is extremely small and the frontal area is a fraction of what other mini truck designs were. It also has a few designs aspects that we believe make it a pretty good choice.

 

Ultimately this is about having fun with friends. Are we trying to set records?? Of course! But having a good time is always #1.

 

 

Andrew

[XXL]

XXL, you are kind of downer man, that's a pretty negative mentality to be carrying. We are not planning to cheat anything. 

 

Sorry I couldn't be more unicorns and rainbows for you.

 

Changing a VIN plate to a different year vehicle sounds exactly like cheating to me.  Otherwise... why would you do it?

 

As for the other information I posted, it's technically accurate, and if you weren't so wrapped up in my "negative mentality," you might have appreciated that you'll need to be considering that very information if you think you're ever going to get a pass on the salt flats.  Bonneville isn't an open track day for any yahoo who shows up in a car with number plates on it.  You have to know what you're doing... based on your posts in this thread so far, I don't think you do.  That doesn't mean you can't learn, because everybody has to start somewhere... but worrying about whether I've provided enough sunshine in your thread won't get you there.

 

/2 cents.  Spend them how you see fit.

[TENDRIL]

i think its a good candidate considering other options, however the chevy luv looks a bit more of an air cutter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ATP]

Well I appreciate the fact that you are trying to offer some constructive information. There are quite a few people that know me and some of what I do, and I'm not exactly a beginner.

 

Taking 2 or 3 vehicles that are structurally and cosmetically the same and making one is not against any rules. We are already in the process of verifying what we are doing from people that actually officiate in the rules. How you interperate what we are doing really doesn't matter.

 

Some of my friends that are working on this project have been involved in some of the extremely fast cars on the salt. (A couple over 300mph) I don't have a ton of experience racing on the salt, but I have also worked on more than a couple hardcore landspeed cars, but ultimately my friends with the experience are who I, and other working on this project, have been talking with to address some of the challenges we will face doing this build.

 

I like constructive criticism, but coming in here and talking about how things won't work and we are cheating already and you would do it different or even that going fast on the salt is not trivial...it just doesn't help anyone. I was asking about styling features between the years to better help us figure out what we can and cannot use from this good 69 roller we are getting. If it ends up only being a parts truck for the real race truck that is fine, but you aren't the one deciding that...are you?

 

I welcome everyone into the discussion, but the condescending, negative opinions you have are not worth reading because they don't do anyone any good. If you think it won't work well that's great, let me know why you think that supported by what you think would be better and what experience you are deciding that from, because I can work with that, and I welcome that! Do you have some wealth of experience you are forgetting to mention? Have you built and/or raced any cars at bonneville? Can you give me your real world experience on that?

 

 

Andrew

[TENDRIL]

i think you guys should do it, if you set records great!! if not you might have the fastest 521 in the world.... that would be pretty fucking cool to say

[datzenmike]

Outwardly the '69 and the '72 are pretty much the same. If you put '70-'72 side marker and front parking lamps on it, no one could possibly tell by looking at it. Aerodynamically identical so no advantage over anyone else. Strictly, still not a '72 though.

 

Just ask how they verify the year.

[wayno]

The late 1968 thru 1972 Datsun 521s are all basically the same except for trivial things like side marker lights and such, the 72 models had shoulder belts, the rest only had lap belts, so it is easy to determine if it is actually a 72 model that has the upper seat belt mount point.

It seems to me that the 521 has a lot of things that need to be deleted, specifically the bed hooks, I went a little farther than that and deleted the bed rail also and formed the bed to the shape of the cab, this type of mod would likely help, but the US never received any models without the hooks/rails, but other models imported to other counties did.

Here is my streamlined 520.

[ATP]

They can verify through paperwork obviously. But many cars out there do not have any. They can check vin, they can look at styling aspects also. The rules are centered around a stock body style with only certain modifications that can be performed. Altering original dimensions of the body are strictly prohibited.

 

Also an issue such as specific year of the vehicle or exact engine displacement or things like that, primarily arise if there is a dispute.

 

 

 

Andrew

[ATP]

People tend to offer advise or opinions because they want to help. The method you have used so far to get your point across has not helped anyone. If all you care about is blasting your opinion all over the Internet for the purpose of reading your own posts, then that's fine continue what you are doing. If you want to help, them please do and offer something in a manner that is curtious and beneficial. That is all I'm asking, I don't think that is a very difficult thing to do? And please give me some experience or real data or something instead of just bashing what we are doing.

 

 

Andrew

[nismo dr]

fucking a, hes not trying to sell a rat  620 with phony 521 plate....  debbie flipping downers up in here

[XXL]

And please give me some experience or real data or something...

 

 

Reading is fundamental http://community.ratsun.net/topic/65477-questions-for-you-all-on-a-521-landspeed-project/?p=1211642. 

[ATP]

You posted info we already know, and is something we obviously are taking into consideration. In fact I mentioned drag coefficient in a post a couple up from yours. We know about these things and it still comes back to the fact that we are running against other mini trucks, so it really doesn't matter if the 520 has a .75 drag coefficient, if the s10, ranger and Toyota are .77. Can you give me some wind tunnel data to back up your thoughts on why the 520 would be like a dump truck? Is that gonna be better or worse than other mini trucks? Do you have some first hand experience you can offer as to specific style aspects that look to pose a problem over a different mini truck design? And honestly...this a Datsun forum, why would you not want us to choose one?? Even if it were a slightly poorer design to choose, which I don't really think is the case, but am open to hearing thoughts, experience and opinions if they can be offered in a halfway decent and respectful way.

 

 

Andrew

[Charlie69]

As far as vin numbers changing on 521 you have the obvious firewall, engine, frame, and door jamb that all match.  And Wayno is correct the 72 is the only 521 That came stock with 3 point seat belts. 

 

I do not agree with changing vin #s it is illegal in the common world so why would doing it for the Salt Flats (Bonneville) be any different.  Also you have stated your intentions of doing this on the World Wide Web!  DUMB ASS!  Have you also posted it on your Face Book page where you register with a real name?

[ATP]

Actually, what I have stated was that we knew we wouldn't be able to run with just this truck, that I was looking for info on differences and that I would be looking for tags/ documentation and possibly a roller or parts to ensure we stay within the rules, if that means building 1 truck from multiple that is an option AND I have stated more than anything else tthat we are going to work with the inspector for this class to ensure we do everything to make sure there are no issue.

 

Are any of you people the inspector for his class??

 

I have and will always repurpose and reused anything and everything I can from old cars. If that means I have to find a wadded up 72 and cut every single panel off it except where the vin tags and serial numbers are to save that beautiful 72, then I will! I will patch panel that entire truck to bring it back to life. And I will hopefully do it with a truck that is destine for the crusher because there is no paperwork and no hope to get back on the road...hey that's just like this 69 parts truck I have! In fact this is how it goes with old vehicles in general and if you think there is something criminal about this approach then you will be convicting probably the majority of any hot rod/classic car builder. If you have a problem building one good vehicle out of 2,3 or 4 then you probably shouldn't be into old cars, because that's often what you have to do. And that is what we will do if need be.

[datzenmike]

As far as vin numbers changing on 521 you have the obvious firewall, engine, frame, and door jamb that all match. And Wayno is correct the 72 is the only 521 That came stock with 3 point seat belts.

 

I do not agree with changing vin #s it is illegal in the common world so why would doing it for the Salt Flats (Bonneville) be any different. Also you have stated your intentions of doing this on the World Wide Web! DUMB ASS! Have you also posted it on your Face Book page where you register with a real name?

 

...and the '69 is basically the same as the '72 body wise and there is no unfair advantage here. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

 

Someone would have to complain

[TENDRIL]

lets talk about motors?

[wayno]

You need to keep in mind that if anyone states that they are going to do anything to a VIN tag, shit hits the fan around here, this reaction is nothing special when it comes to this subject, do not take it personally, anyone will get the same reaction, even me, so I find it best to just not bring up this aspect, as it just leads to arguments.

As mentioned above, lets talk about engines, you say you are going with the 2.3 ford turbocharged engine, we have another guy on here that has had that engine in his 521 for a while, I think he is upgrading now, here is a link to his build.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://community.ratsun.net/topic/49595-crunching-numbers-turbo-23-521/&sa=U&ei=hjbgVJ-oIoekyASb_YKoDw&ved=0CAkQFjADOAg&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGLZgnP0dh2Isx85fuiXgvC6sufTw

[ATP]

...and the '69 is basically the same as the '72 body wise and there is no unfair advantage here. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

 

Someone would have to complain

This is definitely true, but even if we take it further, and say it was disputed, how would anyone ever prove that? Even if I post all over the internet I wanted to put a VIN from a 72 onto a 69, even if that all happened and then when asked I said, "oh but I realized I shouldn't do that so instead I bought a 72 and crushed the 69 since it had no use and was not a truck anyone could ever use again." How, in that scenario, would anyone ever prove otherwise, and even more why would anyone with any bit of sense think to do so, if every aspect of the trucks are identical?

 

Look everyone, I'm not looking to cheat and I'm not even looking to piss anyone off. But the truth is many of you all are probably the most resistance I will meet in this process of figuring out the rules to ensuring the truck that is built fits the class as whoever officiates it sees fit.

 

 

Andrew

[Charlie69]

There are other hidden numbers on the 72 that if the people know what they are looking at can tell the vin is switched.  Since you seem to want to get over on some one I will not tell you where these numbers are.

[konig209]

Who the fuck needs numbers.

There is 1 thing only the 72 has.

 

Shoulder belts. Every 72 i have ever seen and owned has that.

 

 

Why is everyone so negative about this. Maybe it wasnt easy to get a 72 that he would go through the trouble to re-vin.

[DanielC]

I believe here in Oregon, it is the number stamped on the frame that is the VIN of the vehicle.  Everything else is just parts.  To be honest, I need to confirm that, because I have a cab with a 03/71 tag, that I want to replace the floor in, to put on a 521 made in 01/70, that has an even worse floor.  In my mind the cab has to come off the frame, to properly weld and seam seal a new floor.

 

Andrew, absolutely you should go for this project.   If for no other reason than that the fastest early 1970's minitruck is a Datsun.  But it will have other benefits. 

 

I know you are going to have to improve the aerodynamics of a stock 521 to do this.   You are going to find out what you need to do with the bed, and tailgate, I am sure it is more than just leaving the tail gate down, or up.   I have heard on a short bed pickup, it is more aerodynamic to leave the tailgate up, because it creates a bubble of eddy currents, that mimic a teardrop shape aft of the cab, but on longbed pickups, you gain by dropping the tailgate.   You might end up in a situation that from say, 90 to 147 MPH, the tailgate need to be down, or up. and above 150 it needs to move to the other position, or somewhere in between, to make down force for stability.

Maybe the best aerodynamic treatment is to cap the bed, maybe that is against class rules.  I do not know, but please, go ahead and do this.

 

You might find out the best aero improvement is a belly pan, or lowering the truck, or an air dam in the front. or filling gaps on the front end sheet metal, or trim, or faring the rear wheels, or front wheels, or probably something I have not thought of.   If you figure out what aerodynamic improvements enable the truck to get more speed, that maybe could be applied to somebody else’s 1969 521, that spends a lot of time driving on freeways.

 

In my mind, it would be nice if the land speed 521 has a "numbers matching" frame, and cab.  I am not sure if the bed has serial numbers on it, or not, but I know that some 1970 beds has slight differences to accommodate evaporative emission controls, but that change happened earlier on 521 trucks that went to California.  

 

If Andrew needs a "numbers matching" 1972 521, lets help him find one.  Andrew, find out exactly defines a 1972.  Is it how the manufacturer defined model year?  Is it assumed that a vehicle made in September of 1971 is a 1972?  How about August, of 1971 or June?   Do you need a 521 with a "01/72" door tag?

 

I do not think the engine is all that important to be numbers matching.   If it is, it will be really interesting getting enough power out of a L-16 block, even with forced induction, and possibly some exotic fuel.

 

Again, Andrew, I would encourage you to take the people on here saying "you can't" as motivation to prove them wrong.  200 MPH in a

521, that would be cool.