tr8er Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 How long did watergate get investigated? This wait is nothing. And your statement lends credence to the idea that the intent of their interference was to build division within US politics. Many would agree with you. And I believe we must prevent this in the future 1 Link to comment
paradime Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 There is no question of legitimacy for the last election.Unless your side lost.13 Russians had no chance against the American media.I find it funny that so many think the Russians influenced anything.It's a weak excuse for having a horrible candidate to run against Trump. There is no question of legitimacy for the last election if your side won? Trump is president PERIOD. The 13 indicted are never going to be tried, but it spells out what Russia did in great detail. The media left and right showed every email leak, reported the DNC robbing the nomination from Bernie, and covered Comey saying Hillary was under indictment a week before the election. FUCK Hillary 3 ways to Sunday, what are we going to do in response to Russia, just sit back and defend Trump? Talk about weak. I hope the Republican party shows some spin in this and goes after Putin and his Oligarchs. Drop the price of oil and sanction the shit out of them would drive Russia and their nukes into the hands of China, so what should we do? 2 Link to comment
Dguy210 Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 There is no question of legitimacy for the last election if your side won? Trump is president PERIOD. The 13 indicted are never going to be tried, but it spells out what Russia did in great detail. The media left and right showed every email leak, reported the DNC robbing the nomination from Bernie, and covered Comey saying Hillary was under indictment a week before the election. FUCK Hillary 3 ways to Sunday, what are we going to do in response to Russia, just sit back and defend Trump? Talk about weak. I hope the Republican party shows some spin in this and goes after Putin and his Oligarchs. Drop the price of oil and sanction the shit out of them would drive Russia and their nukes into the hands of China, so what should we do? I have a hard time figuring out what response is appropriate other than pretty much suck it up and consider it the cost of doing business. Edit:Let me clarify I have to worry about us putting sanctions out that would bite us in the ass, I like the idea of punishing bad actions I'm just worried about the cost-benefits from it. Maybe someone has a cunning plan to address this that doesn't cost us more in the long run. I hate the idea of them "getting away with it". Small groups causing chaos can be very effective and easy to disavow from state actions. I would also state the CIA or other 3 letter agencies do this kind of crap to other countries all the time [which I find disgusting personally]. 1 Link to comment
tr8er Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 There is no question of legitimacy for the last election if your side won? Trump is president PERIOD. The 13 indicted are never going to be tried, but it spells out what Russia did in great detail. The media left and right showed every email leak, reported the DNC robbing the nomination from Bernie, and covered Comey saying Hillary was under indictment a week before the election. FUCK Hillary 3 ways to Sunday, what are we going to do in response to Russia, just sit back and defend Trump? Talk about weak. I hope the Republican party shows some spin in this and goes after Putin and his Oligarchs. Drop the price of oil and sanction the shit out of them would drive Russia and their nukes into the hands of China, so what should we do? Sounds like what Hillary did to Russia causing their anger in the first place. Trump would ruin his reputation by showing spine. But I am in total agreement of your statement. They were involved at the entry level of every critical element. It's like starting a whole bunch of small fires and letting them burn on their own. Link to comment
Dguy210 Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 Sounds like what Hillary did to Russia causing their anger in the first place. Trump would ruin his reputation by showing spine. But I am in total agreement of your statement. They were involved at the entry level of every critical element. It's like starting a whole bunch of small fires and letting them burn on their own. A very scary thought just occurred to me here. We just let 4Chan know that a very small, lightly funded group, operating over the internet, can cause chaos at the government level easily. 1 Link to comment
tr8er Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 I have a hard time figuring out what response is appropriate other than pretty much suck it up and consider it the cost of doing business. Edit:Let me clarify I have to worry about us putting sanctions out that would bite us in the ass, I like the idea of punishing bad actions I'm just worried about the cost-benefits from it. Maybe someone has a cunning plan to address this that doesn't cost us more in the long run. Small groups causing chaos can be very effective and easy to disavow from state actions. I would also state the CIA or other 3 letter agencies do this kind of crap to other countries all the time [which I find disgusting personally]. In response, I do not think punishing Russia is the smart course of action at all. What we need is a lesson. What we need it to be able to identify, and accept that this is happening next time. When your side is winning as a result of some devisive foreign influence, don't just stand in denial because #Winning. There is more at stake in a US election. We must teach our populous how to recognize this next time. If we attack one enemy, we win one battle. If we train our army we win several. Right now, Trump voters feel attacked and defensive (for very good reason). And as a result, they see anything related to Russia as an attack on Trump. This is exactly the design of this social campaign we have been suffering. Really, it seems the Russians were interested in attacking Hillary. Trump was just the checker that said "King me!". Hate Hillary all you want. But it shouldn't require a high IQ to understand that this should not be tolerated by the US. Our right to vote is severely compromised when we are fed our decision. Domestic influence is bad enough. 2 Link to comment
paradime Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 Sorry Doc, but I'm not satisfied or willing to "suck it up and consider it the cost of doing business". My democracy is none of Russia's business. If I was from another country and the US had done this to us I would be out for blood. The think what pisses me off more than anything is Russia sowing political and racial division in our society. Not that it wasn't there all along but like tr8er said, starting fires and letting them burn can cause a great deal of damage. Before you jump on and blame the other side, consider your opinion may have been influenced by disinformation. Link to comment
paradime Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 How long did watergate get investigated? This wait is nothing. And your statement lends credence to the idea that the intent of their interference was to build division within US politics. Many would agree with you. And I believe we must prevent this in the future After 30 months of investigation into White Water, Starr came up with only a contempt indictment against Susan McDougal. Link to comment
Ratwagon1600 Posted February 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 Could not agree more,with the volume of gun ownership (legal or otherwise) in the USA it's wayyyyy too late for this issue to be solved. There'll be more mass shootings ad infinitum (or till the USA is no longer an entity) ^^^^^^^ this! Link to comment
paradime Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 ^^^^^^^ this! You don't think that with greater enforcement of existing laws, Federal standards for gun safety, public education in identifying at risk people, and focused improvements in law enforcement follow up and response to reporting hotlines could reduce mass killings? Are any of these thing objectionable to gun rights folk? Edit: It's easy being all the way down under to cynically write off the Americans gun issue as a lost cause, but there are people here who are trying like hell to make changes. On with the show now. 2 Link to comment
Ratwagon1600 Posted February 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 You don't think that with greater enforcement of existing laws, Federal standards for gun safety, public education in identifying at risk people, and focused improvements in law enforcement follow up and response to reporting hotlines could reduce mass killings? In short, no. The one key issue is you will never stop a sociopathic lone wolf threat actor who has learnt how to fly that far under the radar that they virtually become invisible. Saturation law enforcement, background checks, cooling off periods, mental health assessments etc don’t do shit when you have a motivated individual that has both capability and intent to do wrong. Link to comment
paradime Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 Cruz didn't fly under anybody's radar RW. This school shooting could and should have been prevented. 2 Link to comment
Ratwagon1600 Posted February 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 Cruz didn't fly under anybody"s radar RW. This school shooting could and should have been prevented. I don’t disagree. You asked if shootings could be reduced; realistically you take one nut job out of the equation you are still going to have two inevitably step in to take his place. Murica is just too far gone with its firearms ownership to ever rein this problem in. It would take multi generational attitudinal change and that just ain’t gunna happen. The Murican government will never fully get this under control IMLTHO. 1 Link to comment
paradime Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 From a law enforcement perspective I understand your pessimism, but a few years ago right here in fucked up America, mass murders weren't happening at such a rate. If society changed that fast, who are we to say it can't be changed again? Link to comment
Ratwagon1600 Posted February 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 The sheer volume of known guns in the hands of citizens says to me how fucked up it us. Add to the equation the unknown firearms and this is to me what makes this an issue of almost biblical proportions. I (sadly) don’t think there will be a tangible change in my lifetime. Sure there may be a minor reduction in shootings with the various mitigation strategies mentioned earlier. Murica / population * number of guns in circulation = continued mass shootings. And remember, I am an advocate for concealed carry! 1 Link to comment
paradime Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 So this thread is just so we can laugh about our division regarding the 2nd amendment? Link to comment
john510 Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 We need to take a look at what Australia did with its gun laws. 1 Link to comment
Ratwagon1600 Posted February 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 We need to take a look at what Australia did with its gun laws. It won’t work in the USA. Muricas attitude to firearms ownership is at almost polar opposites to us. Add to this my previous equation eg number of peeps in possession of firearms, number of known (i.e. accountable for by licensing and serial number records) and unknown (never properly accounted for, passed on through generations, sold multiple times, stolen or illegally manufactured) firearms and the sheer volume of them and its too big for any gubment to make anything more than a minor dent in the problem. Let me use this analogy, I (hypothetically) have 5 guns pointed at your head. I take three away. Are you really any safer? 1 Link to comment
VFR800 Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 The sheer volume of known guns in the hands of citizens says to me how fucked up it us. Add to the equation the unknown firearms and this is to me what makes this an issue of almost biblical proportions. I (sadly) don’t think there will be a tangible change in my lifetime. Sure there may be a minor reduction in shootings with the various mitigation strategies mentioned earlier. Murica / population * number of guns in circulation = continued mass shootings. And remember, I am an advocate for concealed carry! Agreed 100% So this thread is just so we can laugh about our division regarding the 2nd amendment? Don't see anyone laughing (least not in this thread) Link to comment
Ratwagon1600 Posted February 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 So this thread is just so we can laugh about our division regarding the 2nd amendment? Partially, yep you’ve nailed it! Quick edit, as VTR said, no ones necessarily laughing though. 1 Link to comment
datzenmike Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 You don't think that with greater enforcement of existing laws, Federal standards for gun safety, public education in identifying at risk people, and focused improvements in law enforcement follow up and response to reporting hotlines could reduce mass killings? Are any of these thing objectionable to gun rights folk? Edit: It's easy being all the way down under to cynically write off the Americans as gun issue a lost cause, but there are people here who are trying like hell to make changes. On with the show now. Agree with first part. Jesse C said almost the same thing to me about not living there and pointing fingers. I see a country deeply troubled and in need of an intervention by their friends.... Yes a few are trying like hell to make changes but how else to explain this fuck up? the other 300million don't care Link to comment
Ratwagon1600 Posted February 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 the other 300million don't care ^^^^ this! 1 Link to comment
DRIVEN Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 Wow. Pages of Canadians, Aussies, and Californians debating American gun rights. Some real comedy gold right here. 6 Link to comment
Ratwagon1600 Posted February 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 Wow. Pages of Canadians, Aussies, and Californians debating American gun rights. Some real comedy gold right here. Im not debating, im answering questions and providing opinion. Understand I am a lot more qualified and knowlegable about these type of issues than you may think. 1 Link to comment
datzenmike Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 ...and my opinion is based on experience in a country that was founded on British laws and then evolved into independence. There was no need for a well armed militia and no need for everyone to feel that they be armed Link to comment
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