z24 Turbo!?!

[ITzDarcy]

Alright that clears that up and I will get the lm2 in a little while.
I'm thinking just the basic kit will suffice.

So i'm guessing there must be alot of different fuel jet sizes lol. But the carby version I Bought is meant to be the sports version I'm hoping that means for more fuel intake/performance. Which would mean bigger jets ... maybe.

I'm also going to take the engine out this weekend and pull it apart and swap the block over with one of my spare blocks I have.

 

[jwerty1]

You absolutely need the wideband!!!! Without it you will be guessing and will not know if you are rich or lean. What carb do you have? The weber 32/36 is pretty easy to get a handle on tuning. But a numbered drill bit set and you can drill out your jets as needed. If you go too big solder the jet shut and redrill. You may read a lot of nay Sayers about drilling jets, but I've not had issues with it and it saves you from buying jets you don't need. I just built

My own l20b turbo setup in the past year. You will learn a lot from this build GL

[ITzDarcy]

You absolutely need the wideband!!!! Without it you will be guessing and will not know if you are rich or lean. What carb do you have? The weber 32/36 is pretty easy to get a handle on tuning. But a numbered drill bit set and you can drill out your jets as needed. If you go too big solder the jet shut and redrill. You may read a lot of nay Sayers about drilling jets, but I've not had issues with it and it saves you from buying jets you don't need. I just built

My own l20b turbo setup in the past year. You will learn a lot from this build GL

Yea I will be buying it very soon.

I have the weber 38/38. I have seen abit about people drilling the jets out but im not very clued up in that area. I can't find much info on weber carb's beside a few books. What books/info do you recommend to get a handle on weber's. Cheers.

[ITzDarcy]

Updated list

FPR Malpassi Gen - Bought
Upgraded Carby - Bought
Oil Pump -Bought
Fuel pump - Bought
Carb Hat - Bought
MSD ignition 8762 - Bought
Intercooler Kit - Bought
Turbo RB25 - Bought
New RAD - Bought
Turbo Manifold Z18 - Bought
Complete Rebuild kit - Bought
Oil lines - Bought
Exhaust Kit - Bought
Wide band Tuner - Will buy in a couple weeks
Dump/Down pipe - Bought
Clamps/Various - Bought
Vacuum Hose 4m - Bought
LM2 Wideband B-Kit - Bought

Study about Weber Carbs - Getting there
ARP KA24E headstud - Maybe Later
Blow off valve - Later

Decided to buy the Wide Band now rather than later, Just wondering will this kit I bought be sufficient?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=171069619451

[smoke]

Yes, that will work very good for you.

[jwerty1]

I bought the weber carb tuning and repair book. It will get you where you need to be. Jets are simple just a brass plug with a hole in the middle. Bigger the hole=more fuel flow ie richer mixture. Not too sure about a 38/38 as I have the 32/36. I don't think the 38/38 is a progressive carb. From what I understand a progressive carb is easier to tune for a turbo setup. The 38/38 is not progressive and you will end up being way rich all the time to get a good wot tune on boost. I may be wrong as I haven't researched the 38/38 much.

[jwerty1]

Also go to the510realm.com in the engine forum and read through the turbo q&a thread

[ITzDarcy]

I'll post this info from the ebay listing and also give him a call maybe tommorow or the next day. This should shet light to you guys about my carby it says same jet design as 32/36. Also I should get alot of info from David (ebay seller) as I have already talk to him on the phone and he was very helpful. I'm an idiot for not thinking of this earlier.
 

For all cars using a Weber 32/36 DGV or DGAV carburettor

Upgrade your carb to a sports style 38mm

MORE power available & MORE torque

Brand new EMPI twin barrel 38mm sports carb, fitted with electric choke, will directly replace all Weber 32/36 DGV & DGAV carbs. All the same air filter, adaptor or manifold, and throttle links will re-fit to this carb.

The very popular Weber 32/36 carb is used and fitted to a large variety of 4cyl cars as a better replacement for the often troublesome japanese and euro standard carbs. However, the 32/36 was still designed as a standard street use carb.

This 38mm is the sports version, with twin 38mm butterflies and bigger throats opening simultaneously ( both barrels open at the same time), for much increased torque. Still Weber design, using same style weber jets. Just as easy to tune and service.

NO CHOKE OPTION:  If you prefer to run your car with NO CHOKE, tell us at "checkout", we will remove and seal off the electric choke  AND DISCOUNT $60 OFF THE PRICE.

Don't have a Weber yet? We sell all adaptors, manifolds and filters to fit this carb to any 4cyl car. Just PH us for anything you need - BH 0754933788-.

This carb is sold with FULL FACTORY WARRANTY, serviced Here in Australia and is posted to you from Australia via Registered Post

[jwerty1]

That's what I thought, both throats open simultaneously. The advantage of the 32/36 is that you can tune the primary side, which opens first, on the lean side for off boost driving. That way your fuel economy won't suffer too terribly. Then the secondary side, which opens at about half throttle, you can tune rich to sompensate for your on boost driving. Problem with carbs and boost is they are intended to run off of vacuum and you will have issues of leaning out on boost because they won't meter the air correctly. You will have to rea up on how to properly fuel the 38/38 as I'm not sure how to do it right. I'm thinking you will end up being rich all the time in order to not lean out under boost. GL

[smoke]

The real problem with boosting a carb is not a ton of folks know how to do it properly. You can tune then to run normal off boost and then fatten up on boost with the correct emulsion tubes, and air jets. It takes some time to get it just right (which is where the wideband comes in to be very important). My current setup will run in the 14s and 15s off boost, light cruise, but will drop down to high 11s when on boost. One secret is making a slightly higher pressure area above the venturies than what is in them under boost. This in turn gives a little more pressure inside the fuel bowl, which works to force fuel out the main jets. In other words, pressurizing the main jets more than they would be. This can be accomplished by something called 'modulator rings' they look a bit like a velocity stack, but are not. The e-tubes can lean out the bottom end and fatten up the top end, air jets can have an effect as the where the main circuit come in. Keep reading......

 

A common misconception is that a carb works off of vacuum, it does not. In reality, even in a non turbo engine, the carb still acts similar to a turbo charged engine and here is how. Lets say you are at sea level where the PSIA (pound per square inch absolute) is 15 (well 14.7 to split hairs). That means that right now, you have 14.7 psi around you and around everything. It's pressing on you all the time. Now if you take something to make a lower pressure area around you, that 14.7 psi is going to try to fill it. So when the piston in an engine goes down in the bore, it is creating a low pressure area, lower that 14.7 psi, so that pressure outside rushes through the carb to fill that low pressure created by the piston. The pistion is not pulling air through the carb per se, what's going through the carb is higher atmospheric pressure heading to a low pressure spot. When it passes through the carb, that pressure is necked down or restricted even more due to the vent size, this makes an even lower pressure area in the carb, which the fuel in the bowl is drawn too. The faster the air moves through the carb, the lower the pressure in that area, the more fuel is pulled to that low pressure area. So really...even a naturally aspirated engine is having air forced into it, just like a turbo engine. Difference being of course, the turbo is making it's own atmosphere and it's higher than the 14.7 pounds. This is why you hear some folks refer to turbo pressure as "bar". 1 bar equals 1 atmosphere. So if you have a turbo that puts out 1 bar of pressure, you are building 14.7 pounds of boost ABOVE the already existing 14.7 pounds that is in your atmosphere. 

 

This atmospheric pressure effect on an engine can also be seen in high elevation If you drive your car to an area that is 7000 feet above sea level, the PSIA at 7000 feet is 11 (11.3) rather than the 14.7 at sea level. Your engine loses power up this high because it has 3.4 psi less pressure giving the engine boost. On a carburetor engine at high altitude, you will notice it has too much fuel (runs rich) due to less air being forced in.

 

This leads us to the turbo and the fuel it needs. You can think of the turbo as making it's own atmosphere, because it kinda does. Like...if you could drive to a spot that was 5000 feet BELOW sea level, in a car with no turbo, the engine would behave as if it was given 3 pounds of boost. Since most of us don't drive under 12,000 feet below sea level to get boost, we turbo to make that kind of atmosphere. Just like high elevation needs less fuel, low elevation (high pressure, turbo) needs more. Now, most of your time driving (unless you own a race car) is done at pretty light load cruise, in other words, no boost to speak of. Different carbs run of different fuel circuits for this area. Some call it a power valve, some a metering rod, some a progression port. On a blow through turbo engine, these do NOT need to be anymore rich than they would need to be on a naturally aspirated engine. They may change a bit due to the exhaust turbine, the intake path and so on, but not a ton. Normally I find than I can run a little bit smaller jetting in this area than I can with a NA engine. 

 

Now, when you are on boost, letting the engine really pull, with your foot down on the accelerator, this is where you are on your main jet. Here is where people get messed up. A main jet size that works well for 14.7 psia atmosphere is now too small for the amount of atmospheric pressure your boosted engine now has. So the natural response would be to give it a bigger main jet right? Well, that is what most people do and it does work (kinda). Problem is, that approach works on boost, high boost, because most keep increasing the size of the jet until they see the air fuel mixture number on the wideband that they want when on full boost. That's great, if you ran a car on full boost everywhere you went. But since that is unlikely, you find your fuel mixture really rich everywhere else. What is the answer here?

 

Well, there is more than one. Some people leave the jetting the way it would work the best on an NA engine. This of course would make the engine go really lean and burn up when on boost if you did nothing else. What they do here is they add another fuel circuit that only come on when it senses boost. Think of it as a second main jet that's only purpose is to supply fuel when the engine is on boost. Also, they can be tuned to give the right amount of fuel according to how much boost it is seeing. Yes, it's a lot like a fuel injector in a turbo engine, the more boost, the more fuel. This works really good, but it's not needed always.

 

I can set up a carb without this kind of thing and have it richen up under boost. This was not super easy to figure out, so I would recommend the above type setup I mentioned, a simple enriching circuit. If you do choose to go the carb way with no extra circuit...here are some things to do. As I mentioned earlier, you will need different emulsion tubes. For your particular style of carb, they "MAY" make a turbo e-tube you can buy, I am not sure. If they don't, some soldering and drilling is in your future. The e-tube acts like a brake, without the e-tube, the fuel to air mixture would just keep getting progressively more rich with fuel and rpm and low pressure increased in the engine. What that tells you is that you CAN make the e-tube run more rich with the same main jet and only in a certain amount of low pressure. If you can find pre-made turbo e-tubes, this takes all of your guess work out. Someone else already slaved away and found the right combo of holes and the correct diameter for you. This next trick I have actually gotten away with not using turbo style e-tubes. I make the pressure in the fuel bowl just a little higher than the pressure the throat of the carb is seeing. Okay, so how is that done? There are a couple ways...One is modulator rings. They make a slight restriction above the inlet of the carb, in other words, a higher pressure spot. Your fuel bowls vent is in this high pressure spot as is the air jets that go to your mains. This high pressure will force fuel through the main jets much more than they would without it. Think garden hose with nozzle on the end, the more pressure you give it, the more comes out (to an extent of course). Yet another way is to run a line from the turbo to the fuel bowl vent. You wonder how that would work right? I mean that would be the same pressure. Well, it's not...if you hook a boost gauge right to the turbo and one right to the turbo hat on the carb, the gauge on the turbo will read a higher pressure. You lose some pressure. So by running this higher pressure into the bowl, it acts to boost the main jets when under pressure. Yet another way to boost main jet flow under boost in a small restriction ring you tap into the auxiliary booster in the carb. This makes it a little smaller and does not effect anything until air is really racing past it. What the smaller size does is makes it even more of a low pressure area than before, thus making the mixture up there more rich.

 

As you can probably tell, I could go on for hours and hours here, but I will save you from that until you get set up and know where you are at and what needs to be changed where.

[jwerty1]

Where the hell are you located? I wanna sit and feed you beer until I have the knowledge you do. I'm interested in several of the ideas you have touched on as my main jetting and air restrictors are about as close as I can get. It's still richer than I'd like off boost but it does pretty well. Gas mileage is terrible, but e85 is cheaper than gasoline

[smoke]

If you're really close, sometimes you can take a mm out of the float height and have it make a much bigger difference than a person would think. It can control your tip in points, as in make it stay on one circuit just a tad longer and won't hurt over all performance any. Since you are running E85, I am assuming your meter set for lambda, or do you just do the math of it? If it's for gasoline,  you should be around 9.7 (ish) at cruise or even a little bit more lean won't hurt anything. On boost, in the 7s. Or 1 cruise and 0,7ish on boost lambda.

[ggzilla]

Where the hell are you located?

 

...

 

e85 is cheaper than gasoline

[ITzDarcy]

 

As you can probably tell, I could go on for hours and hours here, but I will save you from that until you get set up and know where you are at and what needs to be changed where.

 

WOW thanks for that smoke I was able to take in maybe 50% of it first read, Adding an extra fuel cell looks the way to go but this is a good start cheers. You constantly remind how stupid I am with these posts hahaha

 You will have to rea up on how to properly fuel the 38/38 as I'm not sure how to do it right. I'm thinking you will end up being rich all the time in order to not lean out under boost. GL

Thanks for that jwerty1 and yes my biggest worry about this setup is the carb tuning process so I will need alot of info about this particular carb, But thanks to people like you and smoke this will be ALOT simpler if it is safe to say. haha

 

Got my boost retard in the mail today all the way from the U.S and also the turbo I ordered. Next week will probably 90% of what I've ordered.

 

 

[jwerty1]

Smoke: I've not read up on adjusting my float level. Didn't see it in the weber book either. I'll look again though.

Gg: Pennsylvania, there are 2 e85 stations about 10 miles from me.

Itzdarcy: gl my friend, you will have fun on this journey

[jwerty1]

Smoke: I left my af gauge on gas as that's what I'm used too. I'm about 10.8 wot. Anywhere from 12-13 cruising and my tip in usually goes lean

[smoke]

I doubt the float thing would be in a weber book, might be in an old Dellorto book though. 

[ITzDarcy]

Cheers jwerty1 Gl to you too mate.

So I have a few weeks ahead of me of assembling everything. I will start posting some pics Starting this sunday as I pull the engine and start tearing it down. I have already cleaned up a second block that I'm going to use, But I need to familiarize myself with stripping an engine as I have only gone as far as removing the head cyclinder to check pistons.
If you guys think I may have something to note please do, Otherwise I should have alot of fun figuring it out! haha. I do love it when I can learn something new about cars in particular, As I don't really like taking them in to the shop and never have had to yet!.
 

[ITzDarcy]

Ok so spent about 11 hours today, Took the engine out also found out that the block I previously prepared was a z22 block :sleep:. So forgetting that I had to restrip the z24 block I removed to and cleaned it only about half as good as I did the z22. So pissed off that I found that out too late I decided to not paint this engine as I do not know how to reset the timing kit (timing chain/pistons/cam/valves). So I will change the oil pan gasket, the intake gastket, the head gasket and also valve cover rubber. Also put on the new ka24de oil pump. Apart from that I just need to put the timing chain sprocket back on then I will re-mount the engine. I will be going into perth this weekend to buy a few things for my rodeo and d21. Will be looking for all new bolts and nuts, nice'n'shiny for the setup.

Just wondering how much does it take to reset/change a whole timing kit and/or pistons.
For pistons if re-boring is a must I will have to pass until a later date and I need to look into the pricing around here without diving into that. I have a set of pistons, whether they will fit I don't know. 

For timing kit changing timing chain and tensioners etc. What kind of tools/knowledge do I need to reset it so when I kicked the engine over nothing blows up. 
I would have talked a bit more about it also, but I I am extremely tired and need to start it all again tommorow. Will be doing a lil bit here and there in the afternoons if the weather permits.

Oh and don't mind my awesome workshop hahaha, as I said I live out the bush and make ends meet by improvising.
Thanks for all the help and motivation guys cheers Darcy.

Some pics, were getting somewhere..

[datzenmike]

Yeah they look similar and the Z24 is 2cm taller.

[ITzDarcy]

Yea very similar I only noticed when I was taking my engine I saw z24 badge and rushed over to find that the other was z22.

Anyhow I won't let that phase me.

[ITzDarcy]

So got a bit more done today and got myself thinking again like usual. I am not happy with the condition of this block and head on this motor. I put a new head gasket on it also oil pan and intake/exhaust gaskets. As a gasket set is quite cheap I will be buying another set for a new engine build.

So I'm thinking of using the z22 block with a z24 head, I have 2 spare head cyclinders but I need to check if they're 8 spark or 4 spark. I was wondering do timing chains have a connection clip? where I could maybe reduce the chain to fit on a z22 block or what other way can I make make up for the 2cm slack that will be present. And will a timing kit from a z24 fit in a z22 block. For example - tensioners, cam sprocket, crank sprocket etc.  I could maybe get my hands on another block but its 160kms away and in a paddock on a farm. Please help me to just get a better idea of what my options are thank you.

 

 

[datzenmike]

The chains don't come apart so you will need to get a Z22 timing chain set because of the different height of the block. The sprockets and tensioner are the same but chain and guides are not.

 

Just an opinion but I think the Z22 is a better option for this anyway.

[ITzDarcy]

Ok lol I can see a new list emerging.

Thanks for the info datzenmike but, I talked with a friend today and he has a friend that is a datsun enthusiast and he lives only 1 hour away from me with his own workshop. He has all the equipment for reconditioning/rebuilding engines. 
I have decided that I will be buying a few more tools and/or parts to bring the Z24 back from the dead.
I  will be sending the head away to fitzy the mechanic to get it reconditioned or buy a new one (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nissan-Navara-Urvan-Pathfinder-Nomad-Z24-NEW-Cylinder-Head-VRS-Kit-Valves/161326835661?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222006%26algo%3DSIC.FITP%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140107090050%26meid%3D8005320162419583802%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D20140107090050%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D151295136925)

Also I will be buying a honing tool and piston clamp and replacing the pistons/bearings with alot of help from a friend. Also I will be changing the timing kit, also alot of other tools that I need and will have to buy this weekend with a bit of help from a friend who will be coming to the auto store with me ahaha. Oh well gotta learn somewhere. One thing i'm learning alot of is patience .. 6 months may have been a good estimate after all, will be much more rewarding in the end.

[datzenmike]

The Z24 will make more power because of increased size. I just like the shorter stroke Z22 is all.