Has anyone made an electric truck or wagon?

[tr8er]

The panel that I was thinking of measures 39" X 61". Two of which would be 79" X 61"

 

Really?

[Icehouse]

If I plug it in where I know the power comes from fossil fuel then I am defeating the purpose of having an electric car.

 

Nope, telsa has a good map and explanation of how it will still help.  

 

 

So check out the Tesla web sight and check out the Tzero electric car story.  Both really cool.    

 

 

 

GM is working on an electric vehicle where the power comes from a hydrogen fuel cell.

 

Sounds just like GM.  Another half assed attempt and making something innovative.  I'm sure it will end up like the volt.....

 

 

The panel that I was thinking of measures 39" X 61". Two of which would be 79" X 61"

 

Really?

 

 

That's the size I was imagining.  I don't think they would fit on our cars very well.   We live in the northwest plugging in just means we are taking advantage of hydro power!  

[graveltrapp]

Watched this documentry on the Isle of Man TT race where electric bikes were used. Very well done and available on Netflix.

Here is a trailer for the film.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/charge-the-electric-bike-at-isle-of-man-tt-documentary-video-59878.html

[Icehouse]

Watched this documentry on the Isle of Man TT race where electric bikes were used. Very well done and available on Netflix.

Here is a trailer for the film.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/charge-the-electric-bike-at-isle-of-man-tt-documentary-video-59878.html

 

 

I've seen some of that before.  It's was good.  I want to ride one!!!!  

 

 

 

[DanielC]

You do not really have any control if your electric power comes from  "green" sources.   But I pay extra for "green" power you say.

 

Unless the power company has installed a separate set of green power lines into your house, you get the exact same mix of power generated by whatever source of power the electric company as your neighbor.  

 

Electric power, on the scale of generating power for regions, states, cities, and even neighborhoods cannot be stored.  It has to be generated as the demand for it changes.  You turn on a light, somewhere that additional power has to be made.  or a light somewhere else has to be turned off.  This is a major problem with solar, and wind generation.  When you get up before dawn, to go to work, and you want breakfast, and to take a shower, if it is still dark, and the wind is not blowing, something has to generate that power. 

There is one exception to not being able to store electricity that I know of.    At Grand Coulee Dam, in Washington, there is a pumping station that moves water on top of the plateau, by Grand Coulee, for irrigation.  The water up in the irrigation canal can be allowed to fall back down to the level of Lake Roosevelt, and then down stream of the Grand Coulee Dam, but you only get back about 60% of the power used to pump the water up on the plateau in the first place.

 

To meet the demand changes for electric power, you need an easily controlled way of generating power.  With Hydroelectric, the electric load goes up in the morning, you can open up the gates that control water flow in to the turbines, that spins the generators.  With fossil fuel generation, you burn more coal, or natural gas.  With nuclear, you move control rods, and allow the reactor to make more heat.   With wind, and solar you do not have that control.   You are not going to generate solar electric power at night, nor are you going to make electric power if the wind is not blowing.

 

The biggest problem with some "green" sources of power it that there has to be some other way on making power to back up the green source, for reliable power.  So not only do you have to pay extra for the "green" power, you have to also pay for the back up source of power.

 

Another issue with electric power, is you cannot transport it more than about 500 to 800 miles from the place of generation to the place it is used.  How do I know this?  Just playing with car wiring, you know if you use too small of a wire, or too long of a wire, you lose voltage at the load.  To back up this idea, in the late 1960's power companies noticed that the demands for power were at different times of the year, for Oregon, and Washington, than they were in southern California.  In the summer, Oregon does not use a lot of electric power for heating, but California need electric power for air conditioning.  In the winter, California does not need power for air conditioning, but Oregon needs power for heat.  To move electric power from north to south, they build two stations to convert AC to DC.  DC has less losses over very long distances.  A converting station at Celilo Falls, Oregon, and another converting station at Sylmar, California. 

 

So that is just some of the issues with electric power.  I hope you realize your green car is not as green as you thought it was.

 

And yes, I have though of converting one of Datsun 521 trucks for short trips.   A few hundred pounds of batteries would make it ride much better.  But I know where that power comes from.

 

Hydrogen power was mentioned a little, in this thread.  Here are the problems with that.  Hydrogen is made basically two ways.  First, by stripping the carbon atoms from natural gas, and that requires power, and the need to do something with the carbon, or by using electrolysis, and with electrolysis, we are using electricity again, and probably more electricity than we would have needed to just charge a battery, that moves the car.

[smoke]

Of course...if you have a lot of money, the hydrogen scene changes.

 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-house/

[tr8er]

Hydrogen may have its problems, but production of H3 is also a solution to your other issues. It is an efficient storage and transmission means. If you have an abundant resource, such as a massive hydro, or my favorite, Geothermal plant, you can generate H3 en masse for market. The beauty is that it is stored without losses, and transported distances without major losses (efficiency of a train). Though they have found ways to make storage safer, I do acknowledge that it is some scary shit to store tons of. Though I'll take the position that one occasional massive boom is better than an oil spill. As far as firm power, vs non firm power (where you don't control production capacity). You've pointed out the major long term problem with solar especially. The best place for solar energy is in reducing peak demand. We use the most energy at night is not exactly a common issue. More typically we see loads spike while the sun is up . The Costcos and Safeways of the world have their Refrigeration loads kicking full speed. Solar energy systems on those roofs can reduce their demand at peak to 0. This is a great place for solar. And there are many. Though I know well, that it is not a complete energy solution. Hydro can compensate for day night as well. By opening a dam more at night, and reducing flow at night, you are no longer needing to pump water up hill, let nature bring it up hill in cloud form.

 

Paying a utility for green energy is a funny concept, but it's really a means of voting with your dollar. If you buy a green KWh, the utility is required to produce a green KWh. People buying green energy don't mind where their energy comes from if it is contributing to the larger issue.

 

You know your stuff. Why so negative on renewable?

[RTB]

Wouldn't the best thing to do with current technology is to do a mix of solar, wind, and nuclear? Nuclear energy has come a long way and is much cleaner than anything else out there (besides renewables).

[DanielC]

I tend to be negative on renewable, because many of the facts are hidden.  Another problem is subsidies.  you may argue that subsidies are necessary to make the renewable energy cost effective, but is really does not.  It just shifts the costs to other places.

Another problem with subsidies, is this.  if you have a renewable energy company, that starts with a subsidy, your focus is not on making renewable energy, or a cost effective storage solution, but your focus shifts from whatever you were doing, to doing whatever is necessary to maintain the subsidy.

 

They recently built a wind farm in eastern Oregon.  It was a pretty large one, and to increase the subsidy, they called it three wind farms, that happened to be adjacent to each other.  So instead on the one subsidy they were qualified for, they got three times that amount. 

 

Another issue, here in Oregon, hydroelectric power does not count as a renewable energy source. I think one reason that is is because if it was, there would be no way any other "renewable" energy source could compete on a cost per kilowatt basis.

[RTB]

But subsidizing renewable energy gives incentive for it to be created. While there will always be people that abuse the system, no one does it better than the oil business. They get way bigger subsidies and turn out record breaking profits every quarter.

[tr8er]

Over 2000 tons of nuclear waste per year currently. Spent rods are submerged in pumped running water to keep from meltdown status. This is too much risk for me. If we have any mass die off, these facilities could easily break, causing global problems. 50+ generations before this stuff is close to stable!

 

But I think we will find a way to use, or recycle this stuff better. So we should keep on the research.

 

For now, I prefer the Fission plant in space.

[RTB]

IIRC the newer plants are far cleaner and use sort of pellets as the fuel, not rods. Also fusion is the way to go if they can figure out how to make it work.

[smoke]

Since we are talking about electricity for homes and such. I can tell you that I know a lot less than some of you guys. I have however not used grid electricity at my home or shop in close to seven years. My property has a fast moving stream on it so I built a series of hydro generators that are spun by it a handful of solar panels on my roof, along with a solar assisted water heater. I do have electric heat, but my main source is a Scandinavian style fireplace. I charge a bank of submarine style batteries, which of course is made to AC then into the house. But, in all honesty, I did not do it to be green or to save money, I did it....because I wanted to see if I could. I have had zero issue that a little preventive maintenance did not head off. It's not for everyone, the initial cost, even when doing a lot of it yourself is a bit staggering.

[RTB]

More people need to live the way you do. Automobiles and energy are where we produce most of our greenhouse gasses.

[smoke]

Oh, I'm a bit of a hippie I guess, well...not really, but I do grow most of my own food, make a lot of my own tools (blacksmith), last week I started welding together a little saw mill for making my own lumber. I just truly enjoy that kind of stuff and it keeps me in reasonably good shape. I have a lot of family in Norway (Hardanger) and these guys put me to shame when it comes to being resourceful. Also...I thought their hydrogen highway was kinda neat.

[Rocket Dog]

We have to cut global emissions by 80% to slow down the current rate of climate change and have the possibility of bringing it back to normal.

Does this mean your Land Cruiser is for sale?

[ggzilla]

Selling a gas-guzzling land cruiser does not reduce its emissions.

[oakrun]

convert the land crusher to electric and then sell it.

this is a great forum on diy conversions.

 

 

 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/?s=e71f294f05b771deb12713f22bd5f343