Sealik Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 Just bought a pair these hats for my struts.... As you can see in this pic..... The hat fits well at this position of the insert....but...when it's assembled it's going to be sitting on the smaller/higher portion of the insert. Which.....will leave a little bit of play between the two. Camber plate is sitting at 'installed' height. Am I missing something?....or...is this just the way it is. Thoughts?..... Quote Link to comment
jser12 Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 don't you need a rubber bushing? or is that only for rears? Quote Link to comment
Sealik Posted November 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 don't you need a rubber bushing? or is that only for rears? Could be a bushing ....not rubber though Quote Link to comment
H5WAGON Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 You have a pic looking at the top of the assembly? Is strut secure in Gold base plate? Quote Link to comment
thisismatt Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 Even if the insert shaft was a constant diameter, how is the strut supposed to articulate in that setup? Quote Link to comment
Sealik Posted November 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 "Even if the insert shaft was a constant diameter, how is the strut supposed to articulate in that setup?" ............................................................................................................................................................................... Well...I would assume that is through the bearing in the top hat and the bearing in the camber plate.....?..... Not a good 'pic' when I compressed the setup.....but...you can see the top hat bearing riding on the underside of the T3 Quote Link to comment
thisismatt Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 Looks like the thrust bearing is wedged against the camber plate. So what happens when you go over a bump, the LCA swings up, pushing the strut bottom outward and the strut travels in an arc with the camber plate pillow ball bearing as the axis? The trust bearing race just grinds against the camber plate? Quote Link to comment
H5WAGON Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 Even if the insert shaft was a constant diameter, how is the strut supposed to articulate in that setup? Looks to be missing two items then... :angel:...NV just noticed sleeve spacer for strut. Quote Link to comment
KlassicMotion Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 What strut inserts are you using? Quote Link to comment
Draker Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 I have the same issue. When I asked T3 about this they said it's common and when compressed that small gap will not be noticed. That's what they told me. When it's under load there will be no clunks or handling issues. I have yet to install mine to test. But I have the same issue. I'm not worried about it. And no your not missing anything. Quote Link to comment
banzai510(hainz) Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 i think its fine Mine looks the same Quote Link to comment
Sealik Posted November 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 What strut inserts are you using? Tokico ...gas HZ 3038 Now I just have to figure out which springs to install The 8"/250lb....or the 6"/200lb Wondering if 10W30 synthetic oil is okay for filling the struts???? It's all I have lying around at the present moment Quote Link to comment
banzai510(hainz) Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I got 7 inch and have them crank all the way down to get the look i want. would you think thicker oil be better since its stiffer springs? 200 should be fine. Quote Link to comment
Sealik Posted November 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I got 7 inch and have them crank all the way down to get the look i want. would you think thicker oil be better since its stiffer springs? 200 should be fine. I guess it's all relative to the length of the sleeve and where it is placed on the strut. My 5" sleeve is approx 3/4" from the top of the ZX strut. Probably shoot for 2-3" below stock ride height. The oil is for the strut core.....to dissipate heat away from the insert Some use antifreeze......some use ATF etc. Gonna try some canola.....lol Quote Link to comment
banzai510(hainz) Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Yes your right. My sleeve stop/perch was right at the stock location on my 510 set up as I ran +25mm and was worried the perch would hit the rim. So I went with Icehouse recemondation and got a 7in as a buddy of his had 8 in and wasnt low enough. If using a 280zx strut and a zero offset wheel you can drop the perch lower Quote Link to comment
Sealik Posted December 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) Sooooo...other than antifreeze, what is everyone filling their struts with? I'm guessing any oil type/grade will suffice. EDIT A light engine oil is recommended...10W............. or ATF Fill to approx 2" below top of strut. Keep strut assembly upright prior to install. Edited December 11, 2013 by Sealik Quote Link to comment
KlassicMotion Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Personally I'm not running oil around mine.... Your last edit, where did that come from? I haven't found any strut manufacturer that recommends it. Quote Link to comment
Sealik Posted December 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Personally I'm not running oil around mine.... Your last edit, where did that come from? I haven't found any strut manufacturer that recommends it. Byron510's post... http://www.the510realm.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=23978 Thread from HybridZ http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/24908-filling-strut-with-oil/ There are others..... Quote Link to comment
ggzilla Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Strut inserts (cartridges) are sealed and you can't add oil. A small amount is required to go in the bottom of the strut tube before the insert is fitted, but it has nothing to do with shock damping attributes. By contrast, stock 510 struts did not come with inserts. The had rebuidable struts and you could use various weights of oil to change the strut damping characteristics. Quote Link to comment
KlassicMotion Posted December 15, 2013 Report Share Posted December 15, 2013 Byron510's post... http://www.the510realm.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=23978 Thread from HybridZ http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/24908-filling-strut-with-oil/ There are others..... Still, sounds to me like a race car application only. I've heard plenty of people say they do, but never a manufacturer.... It's my opinion that most people see the fluid in the stock units and assume the new inserts should have it too. There really isn't that much heat build up under normal street driving to warrant it. On the race track though, I could see a minimal benefit. The new strut cap nuts that come with the new inserts have holes in them to let them breath. I suppose, using the fluid isn't going to hurt anything, I'm just not convinced it's necessary. That said, if it were me, I'd run oil. Antifreeze, over time, will dry up and get all "gunky". **edit** I did get this from the second link you posted: "Koni recommends adding 50ml of oil and Bilstein specifically says not to add oil with their inserts. You can add the oil, it won't hurt anything." I would do it for this reason: (especially since my KYB AGX inserts had to be shaved down just to fit in there): "No, don't ever install them dry, they'll never come back out! I just coat the inside of the strut tubes and the inserts themselves with Redline HP CV2 grease. Haven't had a problem in years of racing, but then again the struts come in and out every couple years anyway." Yeah, suppose I will try coating the inserts with oil or grease.... I don't see any reason for anything more than 10w30 though. Quote Link to comment
KlassicMotion Posted December 15, 2013 Report Share Posted December 15, 2013 Back to the upper hat question; I see Ground Control has a different style upper hat. It has the fit I think you were expecting, but I don't quite see what they are using for a bearing.... http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=806 Quote Link to comment
Sealik Posted December 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 Back to the upper hat question; I see Ground Control has a different style upper hat. It has the fit I think you were expecting, but I don't quite see what they are using for a bearing.... http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=806 There are 2 bearings in the T3 setup. One in the upper hat....and one in the camber plate. I doubt the hat from GC will fit better to the T3 plate than the T3 hat ....?.......besides.....I do have their complete setup. Just wasn't sure of the fit.... :) Good to know on the nuts..lol....never realized vented gland nuts were provided by some manufacturers of inserts. Leaves us with 2 scenarios... Vented strut with no fluid.....heat escapes through the holes..but ..can be exposed to elements/water/rust...?... :confused: Or Sealed strut with oil or antifreeze.... running the 'stock' gland nut. The heat is transferred through fluid to outer casing. No exposure. Hmmm......moar research Quote Link to comment
KlassicMotion Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 I was set on going with the T3 setup myself, but I'm not sold on how the top hat sits against the camber plate. It seems at some point the top hat would slide against the camber plate and the strut rod would hit the top hat... I'm just bumping this hoping to get some more opinions on that matter. Or, maybe someone has inspected their setup to see if there is any noticeable wear marks... Sealik what did you end up deciding on it? Quote Link to comment
Dime Dave Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 My 1200 racecar has the T3 style top hats with the "flat" bearing. I personally like the T3 design. The spring/top hat is supported by the bearing against the underside of the camber plate. If the top hat is shaft mounted, all the vehicle load is supported by the spherical bearing in the camber plate. The T3 design uses the spherical bearing for just the shock loads, not the sprung load of the vehicle. An Aurora COM-12 (3/4") monoball bearing has a radial load capacity of 31,920lbs. In a camber plate application it is in an axial load situation which is only 20% of that or 6,384lbs 6,384lbs sounds like plenty, but when you are talking about suspension components most engineering standards use a 10x safety factor, so if you have 600lbs on your front tire, that means the suspension needs to be designed to hold 10x's that or 6,000lbs. With the 10x safety factor, you are close to your limits on the COM-12 bearing if all the load from the spring hat is being transferred directly to the spherical bearing. The sprung load being transferred to the camber plate is why I like the T3 top hat design. 2 Quote Link to comment
KlassicMotion Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 My 1200 racecar has the T3 style top hats with the "flat" bearing. I personally like the T3 design. The spring/top hat is supported by the bearing against the underside of the camber plate. If the top hat is shaft mounted, all the vehicle load is supported by the spherical bearing in the camber plate. The T3 design uses the spherical bearing for just the shock loads, not the sprung load of the vehicle. An Aurora COM-12 (3/4") monoball bearing has a radial load capacity of 31,920lbs. In a camber plate application it is in an axial load situation which is only 20% of that or 6,384lbs 6,384lbs sounds like plenty, but when you are talking about suspension components most engineering standards use a 10x safety factor, so if you have 600lbs on your front tire, that means the suspension needs to be designed to hold 10x's that or 6,000lbs. With the 10x safety factor, you are close to your limits on the COM-12 bearing if all the load from the spring hat is being transferred directly to the spherical bearing. The sprung load being transferred to the camber plate is why I like the T3 top hat design. That sounds like good technical advice to me! I think my faith has been restored. Thank you Dave! As a side note, I did notice Ground Control's camber plates have a smidgen of positive caster built into them, vs T3 which do not... Though the T3 plates look to have more camber adjust-ability.... unless the photos aren't the actual parts.... http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=659 https://technotoytuning.com/nissan/510/camber-plates-datsun-510 Just for comparison, here are the DP Racing camber plates with even more Caster built into them: http://www.ermish-racing.com/online-store Overall, I think I will stick with T3. Thanks for the post Sealik! It helped me make my decision. I hope it does for you as well. Quote Link to comment
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