Prothane VS. Energy Suspension (ES) {1972 510}

[loungin112]

Alright, so I searched through the forum and couldn't find a decisive answer.  There is info on other forums with quite a good debate between Prothane and ES polyurethane bushings, but not here...yet.

It looks as though there are bushing sets for a 72' 510 made by both Energy Suspension and Prothane.  It sounds like there is a slight difference in manufacturing design (2 piece vs 3 piece) for other car makes, but I'm not sure about for our Datsun makes. 

 

 

Essentially, I'm hoping to learn:

 

1. which is better for a street/cruising/track-day application (not a daily driver)

2. who makes a complete set for front and rear bushing replacement

3. which manufacturer is better

 

If you have experience with either brand, share your story of: install, quality, ride, handling, impressions, costs, etc.

 

I'm hoping this can be a go-to topic for anyone wanting to install polyurethane bushings in a 1972 (or similar year) 510.

 

Cheers!

[thisismatt]

Just my 2¢, but I wouldn't run urethane bushings for anything besides mounts, such as the rear subframe mounts and mustache bar.  Front control arm bushings, and even more so T/C rod bushings, need to articulate in more than one axis and urethane is too stiff as well as deforms.  People have broken T/C rods from lack of compliance in urethane T/C rod bushings causing the metal to bend instead of the bushing deflecting.  With the rear suspension you may be fine unless you have a simple slotted crossmember and then you run into a similar situation where you're trying to twist the hard urethane bushings inside the trailing arm bushing sleeve, or if you have mounts that rotate to account for this, then you're expecting the urethane to act more like a bearing and will probably need to grease them or end up with squeaks and/or wearing of the urethane.  Again, just my thoughts on the matter.

[datzenmike]

This. :thumbup:

Rubber grips both surfaces of a bushing and will twist under loading. There is some give or compliance and this gives superior vibration isolation. Polly will not and one surface will rub and chafe causing squeaks and wear. At some point when racing (and I say racing not performance driving on the street) this compliance can actually impair suspension tuning and handling and something firmer is called for. Racing applications expect disadvantages like noise, wear, vibration and early replacement. Polly bushings are like spoilers... they actually can work on a race car but a street car is never driven to the extreme where a spoiler is needed. Same with polly, you can run them but not really needed. Like replacing a worn out carb, a weber is always an improvement. Same with worn out or oil softened rubbed mounts and bushings. Polly will improve the handling but so will new rubber ones and no down sides.

 

Unlike Matt I definitely would not run them for motor or transmission mounts. They will transfer too much vibration and may as well be made out of aluminum. If the engine twists too much chain it down and use a turnbuckle you can adjust..

[KlassicMotion]

I too would definitely not run them for engine/trans mounts.  The previous owner used poly engine mounts on my '75 Mini;  all the vibration from the engine was transfered into the body.  Poly is really only good for an uncrompromising race car.  As a 20 year old kid, I rebuilt my '65 Mustang Fastback suspension with Poly bushings....  The squeaks drove me crazy.  I read on one of the manufacturer's sites that they need to be dissasmbled occasionally and re-greased....  Who wants to do that?

 

I have seen some improvements of the newer poly bushings, but still for the street, keep it rubber.  Quality rubber bushings will out last your ownership of the car, and give you a great, comfortable ride.

[Z-train]

Unlike Matt I definitely would not run them for motor or transmission mounts. They will transfer too much vibration and may as well be made out of aluminum. If the engine twists too much chain it down and use a turnbuckle you can adjust..

This would be true.

[loungin112]

I guess I failed to realize the third option of rubber bushings as replacements. Which, is a very valid consideration as well. From my searching, it looks as though Moog is a supplier of replacement rubber bushings (along with other stock suspension parts).

 

We all want to make our Datsuns perform better then what they were able to make them back in the late 60's and 70's, which is about 40 years of automotive innovation from today. So, with the valid points previously noted, let's keep the discussion rolling.

[john510]

Back to the original question.Ive used both brands on two different vehicles.I can tell you that both felt very similar in hardness/flexibility holding it in your hand.Neither make any squeaking noises on my cars and i doubt you could tell which was which if you used both brands on the same car.Like others have said dont use them on your TC rods.

[thisismatt]

Sorry, I didn't mention engine or transmission mounts.  I wouldn't run poly there either.  I'd probably use it on cab mounts on a pickup, though :P

[Z-train]

Something to check further into-The black urethane is supposed to have graphite impregnated in the plastic.If,so,they will not squeak. Call ES and find out.

[datzenmike]

Sorry, I didn't mention engine or transmission mounts.  I wouldn't run poly there either.  I'd probably use it on cab mounts on a pickup, though :P

Sorry Matt you are correct I was reading incorrectly.

[thisismatt]

Sorry Matt you are correct I was reading incorrectly.

It's okay, my post wasn't clear on that part - I only meant suspension related mounts, but good to clarify on the engine/trans mounts! :thumbup:

[metalmonkey47]

FWIW I have poly T/C bushings, but they were also drilled with about 20 holes front and sides. 

 

Been 2 years now. 

[hang_510]

i run the ES all around and have way more noises that conceals any squeaks.

im happy with the feel.

 

for the TC rods i would get them from ______ (carter sells em)

i have adj. on the sedan, but have them planned for the wagon

[qwik510]

I remembered reading about another bushing from Australia that was not as hard as a poly but stiffer then the rubber. Just did a little searching and found this.

 

Anyone else have any info or experience on these?

 

 

It was in this thread.

 

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/12991-510-sedan-rear-crossmember-subframe-bushings/

 

 

 

http://www.noltecsuspension.com/products.php

I used them in my car and I can report they made a huge difference, the ride is so smooth it almost doesn't feel like a datsun 

I did crossmember and trailing arm bushes, along with front LCA bushes and castor rods bushes, front bump stops.

 

[jrock4224]

I like lambskin ... it gives more feeling ... ya know

[loungin112]

Alright, so from what I could pick up, poly bushings work everywhere except the tc rods unless modified. Transmission and engine mounts are at your own risk. Moog for rubber, prothane or energy suspension for poly. If I come across new info I will add it. Curious about the three-piece design of e/s but the added graphite in the prothane is an attractive feature. SRT forum has quite a bit of info on a discussion thread regarding the two.

 

Cheers

[KlassicMotion]

I just did a quick search;  Based on the information from the websites, I would go with Energy Suspension.  Prothane's website "Failed" in my book.  Where as Energy Suspension had a lot to say about what makes their product different.

I could only find Polygraphite bushings at P-S-T.  Maybe I missed something.  But that said;

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but graphite in the poly sounds like a gimmick.  Graphite works on a 2-Dimensional plane.  Basically, the flat particles slide against each other causing the "lubricating" effect.  If the graphite is suspended within the poly, how is it going to work?

[loungin112]

When thinking about it, I guess the only benefit could be where the graphite has contact with metal, either top, bottom, or inside.  Otherwise, it doesn't help the performance of the Poly itself.  Maybe it would take care of the reports about squeeking and chirping from Poly

[Z-train]

Maybe it would take care of the reports about squeeking and chirping from Poly

Correct.

[loungin112]

Reviving this thread from the dead.....

 

For those who have completely replaced their bushings, front and rear, could you throw out some part numbers? I'm hoping to get this started soon and want to minimize the number of trips to the auto store. Maybe part names would be more useful so as to cross reference the busing names across manufacturers. (My dilemma is I can take it apart and put it together but I don't know the identifying names of all the bushings.)

 

Thanks ratsun

[captaingamez]

I have over 100,000 miles on some of the most wear and tear polyurethane ES bushings. I track, I race, And I drive the living piss out of my car.

 

They are all in incredible condition. Not sure where any of you guys are basing your negative opinions on Urethane at all. Once it is broken in it functions perfectly well, not withstanding old worn other parts that needed to be replaced anyway in all likeliness.

 

After 100000 miles, My Ureuthane is all still perfectly intact, and everything else it is attached to as well, and I have not lost any ride quality from rubber bushing failures. And I am not talking about just some mount bushings, I have Urethane on EVERYTHING IN MY ENTIRE CAR (2002 SI). And I have compliance bushings, not bushings that require compliance, Compliance Bushings, meaning it actually flexes on the bushings rubber (poly)  as the pivot point. Tons of people run the full ES kit on S30s and S130s and never have any issue, most all of them experience a drastic improvement.

 

Not to mention they are completely silent and I do not grease them........ever.............

 

I am putting Poly on the Maxima too. And it will function perfectly fine.

 

 

Back to the original question, Both are great companies, as I said I have put over 100k on ES parts, but I will be buying some of both for my Maxima in the near future, so I would say either are likely a good choice in my opinion.

[captaingamez]

They will transfer too much vibration and may as well be made out of aluminum. If the engine twists too much chain it down and use a turnbuckle you can adjust..

Considering I have mounted a ton of engines many different ways, A lot on rubber hockey pucks, and a lot on poly mounts and a lot on solid aluminium, You are incorrect.

 

The difference between poly and aluminium is MASSIVE. The difference between Poly and thick good quality rubber is not so much, when the rubber is new. When it gets old then the poly wins

 

I used to have good quality rubber mounts, blew them up 3 times. I switched to poly and I have only gone through one set of them, and it was my fault for mounting them off center (which was NOT the issue with the rubber ones), havent seen a motor mount failure on it in years.

[KlassicMotion]

....Not sure where any of you guys are basing your negative opinions on Urethane at all.

 

 

Not to mention they are completely silent and I do not grease them........ever.............

 

Obviously everybody has different experiences.  I put Poly bushings on the suspension of my '65 Mustang, but I did not do the best at keeping them greased.  They squeaked like old bed springs at a cheap motel....

[Icehouse]

I will never run poly in my car.  

 

Reason's 

 

1.  Had them in the back of a 510, after a year the ass end felt like it was falling off.  It was a slotted crossmember and correcting the camber slightly did bind the poly.  Either way no thanks.

 

2.  My buddies TC rod busted,  His quote "scariest thing ever!"

 

3.  My brother had them in his chevy truck and they were so loud he actually pulled them apart every 3-4 months to re grease them.  

 

4.  

 

 

 

 

 

Just trying to save anyone the headacke.  I had way better luck using Byron's rear camber toe brackets and running T3's TC rods and LCA's with heim joints.  Ask Frank or Dillon how my old two door drove, it was amazing and it had zero poly.   

[banzai510(hainz)]

running T3's TC rods

thats the way to do it. Its hard but let the parts move. No broken TC rods=possible death