Salvage Yard 610 - "Anita"

[EdwardK]

It's been a little bit since I updated here, my apologies. All the 3d printed stuff I put in the car melted in the California Valley summer, so I'll redo them in something more heat resistant than PLA soon. Not really a whole going on aside from general cleaning, scrubbing, buffing, etc. So much work to do. I also have a pretty substantial amount of stuff planned for the next three months, but I'm ironing out details at the moment, more to come on that soon.

 

Has anybody had problems with these cars eating brake boosters? I'm on my third one since I left SC. The diaphragms keep cracking in such a way that the booster turns into a massive vacuum leak with the pedal depressed. I'm tempted to just delete it and go with an oversized master cylinder at this point.

 

Also anyone have any suggestions for image hosting sites that aren't Photobucket?

[EdwardK]

On 7/30/2020 at 12:45 PM, datsunfreak said:

 

Once you pop the clip off the back side that holds it in place, it should slide straight back and out. 

 

And it's pretty beefy. It should be tough to break.  😁

 

Sorry for the delayed response. Worked perfectly, except for the rubber gasket having a breakdown. C'est la vie.

[datsunfreak]

On 6/26/2021 at 4:34 PM, EdwardK said:

 

except for the rubber gasket having a breakdown. C'est la vie.

 

Yeah, that's gonna happen on the whole car.  😁

[datsunfreak]

On 6/26/2021 at 4:14 PM, EdwardK said:

Has anybody had problems with these cars eating brake boosters? I'm on my third one since I left SC. The diaphragms keep cracking in such a way that the booster turns into a massive vacuum leak with the pedal depressed. I'm tempted to just delete it and go with an oversized master cylinder at this point.

 

Any chance your MC is leaking from the back side? This will kill a booster quick.

 

Also, they are easy enough to delete. And depending on what brake upgrades you may have done, you don't need to go up in size. The stock MC is a good size for stock (or stock-ish) brakes. 

[EdwardK]

5 hours ago, datsunfreak said:

 

Any chance your MC is leaking from the back side? This will kill a booster quick.

 

Also, they are easy enough to delete. And depending on what brake upgrades you may have done, you don't need to go up in size. The stock MC is a good size for stock (or stock-ish) brakes. 

 

I haven't found fluid on the back side of the MC when I've changed the booster in the past. It is a new(ish) unit, I bought it in like 2015 and installed it last year before the drive across the country. I've also installed a vacuum check valve but after messing with it I'm thinking it could be bad. Both previous boosters smelled heavily of fuel vapor and this one does as well.

 

I'm ordering the Wilwood 10" kit for the front; rears will come at a later date and when that get's done I'll do the 1" MC as well. Was thinking about a 280zx 15/16" interim upgrade in the meantime. 

 

I'm also currently lamenting over my options for safety belts, I'm debating a half cage and four point harnesses, but the rear seats would need to come out as I refuse to cut them up. So perhaps a well designed bolt-in that I can swap back and forth whether I'm at a meet or at the track... Regardless the stock safety belt geometry is abysmal. 

 

King springs just got ordered from Australia, just waiting on a shipping invoice, front struts will get rebuilt with motorcycle fork oil, rear shocks will get replaced with some good units after I do some more research. I'm unsure if 30mm is low enough to warrant a bump steer kit, but I'm ordering the steering box and frame braces from Ermish-Racing so I'm tempted to grab them anyway and bundle the shipping.

 

The goal right now is Laguna Seca in October, and I think it's doable, but lots to work out in a fairly short amount of time.

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by EdwardK
correcting Wilwood rotors to kit

[datsunfreak]

46 minutes ago, EdwardK said:

I've also installed a vacuum check valve but after messing with it I'm thinking it could be bad. Both previous boosters smelled heavily of fuel vapor and this one does as well

 

Fuel vapor is also a great way to destroy the rubber inside the booster. 

 

47 minutes ago, EdwardK said:

I'm unsure if 30mm is low enough to warrant a bump steer kit

 

In my experience with lowering these, I have never seen them make a difference until you lower it more than 60mm.

[EdwardK]

23 minutes ago, datsunfreak said:

 

Fuel vapor is also a great way to destroy the rubber inside the booster. 

 

 

In my experience with lowering these, I have never seen them make a difference until you lower it more than 60mm.

 

My thoughts exactly on the fuel vapor.  A check valve is fairly universal so I'll probably find something that isn't NOS this time around. 

 

I'll do some more poking about at some of the other builds but I'm also inclined to agree with you on the bumpsteer kit. I'll save the $80 now, sling it around the track and see how she feels. It's at least a fairly quick and easy install.

 

[datzenmike]

Removing the booster will increase the braking effort. Increasing the MC size will also increase the effort. It

s will be like trying to crush a brick with your foot, don't do it. Replace the booster and maybe the one way valve.

 

Take the old one out and suck on both ends. You should be able to suck air through from the engine side and nothing from the booster side.

 

 

As for rubber diaphragm, does anything get made out of rubber these days? As cars contain and run on gas if I made them only the tires would be rubber. Seems counter productive to have perishable rubber parts under the hood.

[EdwardK]

20 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Removing the booster will increase the braking effort. Increasing the MC size will also increase the effort. It

s will be like trying to crush a brick with your foot, don't do it. Replace the booster and maybe the one way valve.

 

Take the old one out and suck on both ends. You should be able to suck air through from the engine side and nothing from the booster side.

 

 

As for rubber diaphragm, does anything get made out of rubber these days? As cars contain and run on gas if I made them only the tires would be rubber. Seems counter productive to have perishable rubber parts under the hood.

Can't be any worse than some of the old bucket trucks I drove in an earlier job! In all seriousness, I'd rather keep the booster, but replacing it every four to six months is gonna get old quick. I'll check the valve next time I'm down at the hangar, hopefully it's failed and a new booster and valve get me sorted for a longer period of time than last.

 

I would assume being as old as these cars are and as cheaply made as the replacements are that they still use rubber diaphragms. I haven't taken either of the old ones apart to verify it was actually rot or a split seam. But I agree with you, in general rubber is the enemy.

[datzenmike]

Try to find an used original Nissan booster rather than the crap they sell today. I can see the original using a neoprene diaphragm and the crappy after market ones substituting a rubber one to save a buck.

 

The '74-'77 710 and the '77-'79 S10 (200sx) use the same Master Vac booster. 47210-U9500

[EdwardK]

On 6/29/2021 at 10:54 AM, datzenmike said:

Try to find an used original Nissan booster rather than the crap they sell today. I can see the original using a neoprene diaphragm and the crappy after market ones substituting a rubber one to save a buck.

 

The '74-'77 710 and the '77-'79 S10 (200sx) use the same Master Vac booster. 47210-U9500

 I'll give it a shot, thanks!

[EdwardK]

Just a small update from my time working on the car yesterday. Fixed an oil leak from the fuel pump base, realized I ordered a sedan interior door handle and not a coupe interior door handle. And found my check valve on the brake booster to be working fine, so I guess the cheap a/m unit is cheaply made. Shocking, I know.

 

After doing some more research on brakes, it is my understanding that the old SCCA ITC cars kept the stock brakes. I'll toy around with what I've got and see what I can do, the brake system is obviously not in tip-top shape with the failures I've had, but even when the booster was working the car just felt massively under-braked to me. The plan this week and next is to re-adjust the rear drums, see about doing some corrosion mitigation on the front, replace all the rubber lines and flush the system. We'll see how they feel after that, if I'm not 100% confident in them she's getting a Wilwood kit.

 

Also as a side note, after talking to one of our hangar neighbors who used to race 510's I've got another small list of things to tack on between now and October. Still retaining the stock seats for street driving and meets, but I will be swapping the seats out whenever it goes to the track for something with less of a propensity to break spines.

[datsunfreak]

4 hours ago, EdwardK said:

After doing some more research on brakes, it is my understanding that the old SCCA ITC cars kept the stock brakes.

 

Wouldn't that be due to the rules for that class?

 

4 hours ago, EdwardK said:

the car just felt massively under-braked to me. The plan this week and next is to re-adjust the rear drums, see about doing some corrosion mitigation on the front, replace all the rubber lines and flush the system.

 

If you haven't replaced all of the rubber lines and adjusted the shoes yet, that will be 90% of your problem fixed once you do. 

 

4 hours ago, EdwardK said:

We'll see how they feel after that, if I'm not 100% confident in them she's getting a Wilwood kit.

 

FWIW, swapping to 280ZX struts/brakes is a heck of a lot cheaper, and better in the long run. Makes replacement parts easier to find, and upgrades other things along the way. For example, the stock bearings are a bit wimpy for hard use. Swapping in the 280ZX stuff gets you bigger/better bearings. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by datsunfreak

[EdwardK]

14 minutes ago, datsunfreak said:

Wouldn't that be due to the rules for that class?

 

If you haven't replaced all of the rubber lines and adjusted the shoes yet, that will be 90% of your problem fixed once you do. 

 

 Per the rules yeah. But seeing as these brakes could hold up to what I'm assuming was fairly hard and serious racing, I'm of the opinion something is screwy with mine. Rubbers and adjustments are cheap, especially since I already have new lines, just haven't installed them yet. I'll try that first

 

19 minutes ago, datsunfreak said:

FWIW, swapping to 280ZX struts/brakes is a heck of a lot cheaper, and better in the long run. Makes replacement parts easier to find, and upgrades other things along the way. For example, the stock bearings are a bit wimpy for hard use. Swapping in the 280ZX stuff gets you bigger/better bearings. 

 

Originally I was going to do the 280zx strut/brake swap and I still may in the future. Iirc you keep the 610 tops and springs but the 280zx strut bodies are longer and you end up having to move the spring perch or am I misremembering that?

 

But at least for right now rebuilding and re-springing the struts I have should be fine. Didn't know about the larger bearings though. That's good information to mull over.

[datsunfreak]

14 hours ago, EdwardK said:

Originally I was going to do the 280zx strut/brake swap and I still may in the future. Iirc you keep the 610 tops and springs but the 280zx strut bodies are longer and you end up having to move the spring perch or am I misremembering that?

 

The 280ZX struts are actually shorter, by a lot. Makes it much easier to lower the car as well. as the stock struts will bottom out if you lower the car even a little bit.

 

The spring perches are in the right spot, just too large a diameter for the 610 spring. There are a few fixes for this, but in my experience these two are simplest...

 

1. Cut off the 610 perches and weld them onto the 280ZX struts. You can either remove the 280ZX perch altogether, or just weld in the part of the 610 perch that locates the spring into the 280ZX cup/perch (usually what I do, it's quick, simple, and it works great).

 

2. Switch to threaded adjustable sleeves and cut off the 280ZX perch. Better for spring choice, and nothing beats being able to adjust stuff. 

 

15 hours ago, EdwardK said:

But at least for right now rebuilding and re-springing the struts I have should be fine. Didn't know about the larger bearings though. That's good information to mull over.

 

The main issue I find with not doing a strut swap is parts availability. Everything for a 280ZX is available and easy to get/cheap. Almost every wear part on your stock front struts is unavailable new. 

[EdwardK]

Springs got here last week so I started putting them in last weekend. Rears went in with minimal problems, (Only rounded one nut, new one ordered.) 

 

 

 

Here it is with the rears installed and set back down on the ground. It's minimal, but I wasn't looking for much.

 

 

Fronts were slightly more interesting. Someone in the past apparently lost one of the lower strut bolts and thought this was a good idea:

 

 

Through some miracle of fate the threads are undamaged. So I ordered a NOS bolt and a gland nut wrench (I thought I had one but was unable to locate it, also didn't have the will to make my own.) Under the boots the front shocks are clean and dry, so I have high hopes I can replace the oil and call it a day this weekend once the tool and bolts are here. I also ordered ball joints. These are extra floppy....

 

 

And lastly have a goofy, not quite artistic picture of all the tools and stuff:

 

 

I plan to replace all the bushings sometime over the winter and will probably go through and repaint all the suspension components just so they look less crusty. But at least right now I want the car drivable for a thing next week. We'll see how that goes.

 

 

On 7/13/2021 at 5:27 AM, datsunfreak said:

 

The 280ZX struts are actually shorter, by a lot. Makes it much easier to lower the car as well. as the stock struts will bottom out if you lower the car even a little bit.

 

The spring perches are in the right spot, just too large a diameter for the 610 spring. There are a few fixes for this, but in my experience these two are simplest...

 

1. Cut off the 610 perches and weld them onto the 280ZX struts. You can either remove the 280ZX perch altogether, or just weld in the part of the 610 perch that locates the spring into the 280ZX cup/perch (usually what I do, it's quick, simple, and it works great).

 

2. Switch to threaded adjustable sleeves and cut off the 280ZX perch. Better for spring choice, and nothing beats being able to adjust stuff. 

 

 

The main issue I find with not doing a strut swap is parts availability. Everything for a 280ZX is available and easy to get/cheap. Almost every wear part on your stock front struts is unavailable new. 

 

Thank you for the thorough information. I'll probably do this upgrade eventually, but at least for now while (crossing my fingers) the struts look easily rebuildable I'll stick with the stock stuff. I have no good explanation for wanting to avoid adjustable coil-overs aside from I just don't want them on this car at this point in time. lol

[banzai510(hainz)]

where you get those springs???

Those KING springs from Australia????  man those look alot shorter than  I would think. almost too low where your riding on the bottom anyways.  I think cut cut a coil and half of the stock spring.

 

good way is shorten the tube to 280zx length but keep the stock spring so you still have a good ride with travel but overall length is shorter giving you that lower ride height

 

I went with T3 coil over in the 7 inch length ones and dialed it al the way down to get the look I want

[EdwardK]

21 minutes ago, banzai510(hainz) said:

where you get those springs???

Those KING springs from Australia????  man those look alot shorter than  I would think. almost too low where your riding on the bottom anyways.  I think cut cut a coil and half of the stock spring.

 

good way is shorten the tube to 280zx length but keep the stock spring so you still have a good ride with travel but overall length is shorter giving you that lower ride height

 

I went with T3 coil over in the 7 inch length ones and dialed it al the way down to get the look I want

 

Yeah, They're Kings from Oz. They have a fairly high rate to them so they compress a lot less than the stock springs do. It's an advertised 30mm drop and the rears measured out at about 25mm, so I'm not too worried about bottoming out. As I said earlier, I might do 280zx struts in the future, but it's just not in the current plans. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by EdwardK

[datsunfreak]

4 hours ago, EdwardK said:

They have a fairly high rate to them so they compress a lot less than the stock springs do. It's an advertised 30mm drop... so I'm not too worried about bottoming out. 

 

If you still have bump stops, I would strongly suggest either cut them in half (height) or leave them out entirely. Otherwise, it will definitely bottom out. 

[banzai510(hainz)]

12 hours ago, datsunfreak said:

If you still have bump stops, I would strongly suggest either cut them in half (height) or leave them out entirely. Otherwise, it will definitely bottom out. 

Yes exactly as he said.

 My Banzai 510 had the long struts and I cut a few lops from the spring but still bottomed out on the stops

[EdwardK]

Well phooey. I take back everything I said about rebuilding these struts. It appears to me that someone has been in them before me and replaced the good stuff with inserts. Sooooo, idk what I'm gonna do right now. Between this and my daily deciding it needs all of the repairs my finances are shot, so I guess I'll just leave her on jack-stands for now... 

 

I guess I'm cutting these guys down and ordering some 280zx inserts in a couple paychecks. Judging from the numbers I've found I should only have to cut it down by around 1 1/2", but I'll get the inserts and verify.

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by EdwardK

[EdwardK]

I found an individual selling some 280ZX struts already converted to coil overs(which I know I said I wouldn't do anytime soon), reinforced and setup for rally racing. They're very reasonably priced, so it seems like a no-brainer. I'll need brakes, bearings and even more springs, but what the hell, if the price is right, right? Sent them a message, fingers crossed.

 

Does anyone know if the pre-fabbed 510 Rollbars also fit in the 610? A lot of the companies that build them list them as 510, 610, 710. And while I'm hopeful, I'm also skeptical. 

[datsunfreak]

Just now, EdwardK said:

Does anyone know if the pre-fabbed 510 Rollbars also fit in the 610? A lot of the companies that build them list them as 510, 610, 710. And while I'm hopeful, I'm also skeptical. 

 

It will definitely fit in the car. Worst case is it may be a bit on the small size (likely). A 510 and 710 are roughly the same size, while a 610 is a fair bit bigger.

[EdwardK]

So TL:DR springs are fine; and don't bottom out, at least they don't bottom out on the Corkscrew at Laguna, and that's good enough for me. lol I ended up using 280ZX cartridges and machined out a Delrin insert to take up the extra space in the shock body. The travel length between the two was the damn near the same so I wasn't concerned about it. I've got photos for this and all the other ""mods" and I'll get them uploaded soon™. I swapped in an internally regulated alternator from a 200sx as my regulator bit the dust two days before Laguna, and then spent the rest of my free time tidying and prettying the car up in general.

 

I sprung an oil leak from the fuel pump base at the event. Not sure where from, but I've already replaced it with a new one, I'll do an autopsy on the old pump whenever I next get bored(Ha!). Decided to drill out my alternator bracket to allow for M10 hardware since the M8 stuff has been stripped for as long as I've had the car. I had gotten reeeeal tired of adjusting the alternator every couple hundred miles, now we're golden. 

 

I've added to my future list; so many rubber bushings and some adjustable suspension components, both to fix the toe in the rear and to get the front camber under control. But those are a couple months down the road if not a couple years.

 

In the meantime, I took the car to Laguna, it was a riot. Here are photos and a really crappy video from it. (Including a crunchy missed shift because I am bad.)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfsFHVRD_OI&t=40s

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by EdwardK

[datsunfreak]

15 hours ago, EdwardK said:

So TL:DR springs are fine; and don't bottom out, at least they don't bottom out on the Corkscrew at Laguna, and that's good enough for me. lol 

 

Glad to hear it! Did you put in any kind of bump stop on the front?