qwik510 Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 What about the Penultimate rear Crossmember that Kelvin was making? I have an extra one. Brand new never mounted. Complete Crossmember with exhaust hole enlarged for 3" exhaust. Quote Link to comment
KlassicMotion Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 What about the Penultimate rear Crossmember that Kelvin was making? I have an extra one. Brand new never mounted. Complete Crossmember with exhaust hole enlarged for 3" exhaust. I'm not familiar with this setup... Got pics, or a link to what it is? Quote Link to comment
qwik510 Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Here are pics of mine. The Dime Quarterly did a write up on it. Volume 2 Issue 3 https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0ByCvxnHNk90SYzc4N2E1MWEtMzg0MC00YTE4LTkxZGQtM2RjODA5ODA1YjU1# They also did a write up on how to slot a crossmember in the next issue. Vol 2 Issue 4. Link above is to all the back issues. Check them out. Quote Link to comment
KlassicMotion Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Ok, so the explanation is this: "The new attachment points are designed to pivot in the center, thereby allowing the control arm bushings (rubber or poly) to self align." Very interesting. So let me see if I've got this right; The mounts now pivot. So you put everything together, set the car down, make your adjustments with shims and then lock the new mounts down? One of the reason's I'm skeptical of Byron's mounts are the fact that the outside mount does not have any allowances for the adjustments made with the inside mount. It seems they could put a decent amount of stress on the rubber bushing. Fine tuning of the inside mount also looks a bit more difficult. The DatSport setup looks like it takes the slotted method one step further by adding the adjusters. And making fine tuning easier. I'm liking that Penultimate setup... I'm just trying to figure out which is the best method. Which one puts less stress on the system? Which one will offer the longest service? And which setup will be the easiest to adjust? For my purposes, I will be adjusting them once and leaving them. Quote Link to comment
qwik510 Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I am not that familiar with the Datsport or Byron's methods. I have not even gotten my car on the road yet to be able to tell you how well the penultimate works. I got one, installed it and will try it out once I get the car back on the road. I picked up the one in the pics above after I got my first one. (Too many 510s, lol) I do know that Kelvin, the guy that designed it, is a 510 Guru. He knows his stuff. He recently developed a traction bar setup for the 510 wagon. Here is info: http://www.the510realm.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=25364&hilit=Wagon+group+buy He has been around 510s for over 30 years. If you decide on a penultimate and don't want to build it, I would sell the one above. Quote Link to comment
Dime Dave Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 FutoFab sells Byron's rear camber/toe brackets. These brackets only replace the inner trailing arm brackets, so when adjusting camber the outer bushing needs to be compliant to shift "off axis" when you move the inner pivot point for camber adjustment. We recommend using either the stock rubber bushings or monoball bushing replacements to keep the suspension from binding. FutoFab sells DPR monoball replacement bushings for the rear trailing arms (not listed on our site, please email me for info/purchase). This kit will replace all 4 trailing arm bushings, These, while snug fitting are not designed to be a press fit and will need to be tack welded in place once installed. The kit using the stock 510 pivot bolts is $295/set + S&H. ($6 US). We have these in stock. Quote Link to comment
blueridgespeed Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Dave Patten does us all a favor by posting reliable information here. Byron's brackets rule, mostly as an evolved solution for welding in to our stock, non-adjustable cross members. That's why Dave, who has been killing it for years, offers them for sale. Slotting works, but isn't as easy to adjust, and can induce binding with bushings. A spherical bearing setup on both ends of the A-arm will allow for mis-alignment, and racers have done this forever. I worked hard to make a better crossmember...and just only came close. Mine was a "custom penultimate" design- only adding camber adjustablility to the penultimate design..but it was a lot of work and not as simple, thus elegant, as Byron's solution. I gave it a real good go, but was late to the party. That was 10 years ago. Quote Link to comment
KlassicMotion Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 FutoFab sells Byron's rear camber/toe brackets. These brackets only replace the inner trailing arm brackets, so when adjusting camber the outer bushing needs to be compliant to shift "off axis" when you move the inner pivot point for camber adjustment. We recommend using either the stock rubber bushings or monoball bushing replacements to keep the suspension from binding. Dave Patten does us all a favor by posting reliable information here. Byron's brackets rule, mostly as an evolved solution for welding in to our stock, non-adjustable cross members. That's why Dave, who has been killing it for years, offers them for sale. Slotting works, but isn't as easy to adjust, and can induce binding with bushings. A spherical bearing setup on both ends of the A-arm will allow for mis-alignment, and racers have done this forever. I worked hard to make a better crossmember...and just only came close. Mine was a "custom penultimate" design- only adding camber adjustablility to the penultimate design..but it was a lot of work and not as simple, thus elegant, as Byron's solution. I gave it a real good go, but was late to the party. That was 10 years ago. I just purchased the Penultimate crossmember from David. I'm wondering if I should make a hybrid out of it. I'm trying to figure out if putting Byron's brackets on the inner mounts wouldn't do just that? Any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment
Dime Dave Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 You could use Byron's brackets inboard, but even with the penultimate pivoting outer bracket you will still have some bushing axis misalignment at that location if you start cranking in allot of toe adjustment. In reality any adjustment off the original pivot axis will create a potential binding condition with either type of cross member brackets. The mono ball is the best solution to alleviate bind issues. 1 Quote Link to comment
freekwonder Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 You could use Byron's brackets inboard, but even with the penultimate pivoting outer bracket you will still have some bushing axis misalignment at that location if you start cranking in allot of toe adjustment. In reality any adjustment off the original pivot axis will create a potential binding condition with either type of cross member brackets. The mono ball is the best solution to alleviate bind issues. How do the mono balls get installed. Notice it says they have to be tack welded in place? Quote Link to comment
510T Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I've got a Kelvin/DGR Penultimate in my 510 with the DPR bearing kit and could not be happier. There is no noticeable binding. Quote Link to comment
Dime Dave Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 How do the mono balls get installed. Notice it says they have to be tack welded in place? The long large OD sleeves have a recess machined into them. The bearing fits inside of the sleeve in the recess and then both slide into the control arm. From the opposite side the shorter large OD sleeve slides into the control arm. This keep the bearing in position and centered in the control arm. The OD of these sleeves are close enough to the ID of the control arm bushing bore that they fit tightly but are not a press fit. This is why they need to be tack welded, to keep them from moving out of position. The gold colored step spacers go one on each side of the bearing and slip into the bearing's bore. These are machined to fit the stock pivot bolt diameter. The washers go to the outside of the spacer and on the inside the brackets. The bolts are installed and clamp the spacers, washers and bearing together keeping the bearing "ball" fixed so the outer race can move. 1 Quote Link to comment
KlassicMotion Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I've got a Kelvin/DGR Penultimate in my 510 with the DPR bearing kit and could not be happier. There is no noticeable binding. That's another option I was thinking. Thanks! And it's only another $300!! Yeah!....... :hmm: Quote Link to comment
SR20DETdatsun510 Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 So Erich, Where is this 510 Cross Member? Any Progress? Quote Link to comment
freekwonder Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 The long large OD sleeves have a recess machined into them. The bearing fits inside of the sleeve in the recess and then both slide into the control arm. From the opposite side the shorter large OD sleeve slides into the control arm. This keep the bearing in position and centered in the control arm. The OD of these sleeves are close enough to the ID of the control arm bushing bore that they fit tightly but are not a press fit. This is why they need to be tack welded, to keep them from moving out of position. The gold colored step spacers go one on each side of the bearing and slip into the bearing's bore. These are machined to fit the stock pivot bolt diameter. The washers go to the outside of the spacer and on the inside the brackets. The bolts are installed and clamp the spacers, washers and bearing together keeping the bearing "ball" fixed so the outer race can move. Really late to the game and your informative reply, but awesome thanks for the explanation. Quote Link to comment
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