510 Wagon sway bars?

[DRIVEN]

Rather than post this in the suspension section, I'll put this where the experts are.

 

What are the sway bar combinations you wagon guys are running (front and rear)? Also, are your front springs stock rate? Do you like your combo or would you change something? Have you found a front or rear bars from another vehicle that was easily adapted and did it work? Example: I have one (rear) from a mid '90s ranger that looks like it might be a good fit.

[datzenmike]

Since the 510 didn't come with a rear sway bar adding anything will upset the handling and increase the oversteer. Understeer is the scariest feeling of all. It's only prudent to increase the front bar to compensate for the rear. Cars are designed with a slight tendency to understeer.

[Uber Deaf One]

Since the 510 didn't come with a rear sway bar adding anything will upset the handling and increase the understeer. Understeer is the scariest feeling of all. It's only prudent to increase the front bar to compensate for the rear.

 

Do you mean oversteer? Adding a rear bar tends to shift a car's balance towards oversteer.

[datzenmike]

Yup, must tattoo that on my arm. Corrected.

[DRIVEN]

That's why I'm asking. My car currently understeers. I would like to upgrade to a stiffer front bar as well as add a rear bar. I'm looking for a balanced setup that others are happy with rather than do a bunch of trial and error experimentation. I also may be setting up some 275# coilovers on zx struts in the future so that's why I asked about spring rates.

[Spades]

addco makes a rear swaybar for the wagon, I have seen a few people with it. I am a fan of swaybars and if I ever get all of the other crap my wagon needs handled, that is where the budget will go next. I know stiffer springs and lowering help with understeer, but not as much as a good swaybar set will.

[Laecaon]

Yea, I am planning on buying the addco sway bar soon, and probably a bigger front one. I am not a fan of stiff springs, but stiff sway bars. I hate body roll, but like absorbing bumps.

 

Here is the addco from summit for $180.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ACO-991/

 

I am just going to order mine through work one time.

[DRIVEN]

So it looks like Adco pairs that with a 1" front bar, right?

[Son_of_a_Datsun_Guy]

I've been running a 7/8 bar up front (I too have been looking into the rear sway bar for my wagon) and it understeers like a mofo, ploughed half the corners at my last autocross because of it, but I've been told by others that a 1" bar is too much for a street car...

[DRIVEN]

I've been told by others that a 1" bar is too much for a street car...

Sounds like a challenge to me <_< . No, not really.

 

Isn't it really more about balance? I would think a 1" would be fine as long as an appropriate rear bar was used.

[Son_of_a_Datsun_Guy]

Probably, but I like having the 7/8 because there are less of them out there on cars that i've seen :rofl:

[Tristin]

Does all this apply to 4drs as well? I have wicked amounts of body roll that I need to get rid of. I keep getting close to pulling the trigger on a set (front/rear) but I never do...

[Silky_Johnson]

I'm no expert, but I can tell you what I've got and what I'm experiencing.

 

I bought my goon with some mods already made. I think I have a 1" front bar, and aftermarket lowering springs. I have no idea what the spring rate is, but I do know that they are super stiff. Paired with my tiny 13" wheels, I crawl over all speed bumps. The back end is stock with 3" lowering blocks and cheapo Monroe shocks. No flipped leaf springs or anything like that.

 

My goon handles awesome with this setup. If anything I barely get oversteer on fast corners. It never understeers. The only time it cuts loose on me is when I'm flying around one of those circular onramps at 40 or more MPH. That's just a guess as I'm generally not focused on my speedo in those situations...

 

I was considering the Addco rear sway bar, but it's hard to justify given the way the car handles now. As I understand it, putting a rear bar on would only increase oversteer? I suppose I could put a strut tower brace on to help correct it, but it all seems unnecessary on my goon. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

[Uber Deaf One]

but I've been told by others that a 1" bar is too much for a street car...

 

There is no such thing as "too much" for a street car.. it's all about balance. Stick with the 7/8" front bar and get the Addco bar and see how it feels. I wouldn't be surprised if you need to go to a 1" front bar afterwards.

 

With wagons I'm all for rear bars. It's just a matter of balance. Figure out what front springs you want to run, then it's just trial and error with the sway bars. 225-275 lbs seems to be a good range for a street car...

 

For the 510 sedans..... Because of the 510 IRS design, you want to run extremely stiff springs in the back to reduce suspension travel. Less suspension travel = less toe/camber change while driving. Up front I have 275 lb springs and a 1" solid bar. In the back I'm running springs that are 300 lbs wheel rate and no rear bar.

[Uber Deaf One]

I suppose I could put a strut tower brace on to help correct it, but it all seems unnecessary on my goon. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

 

A strut tower brace won't do anything for oversteer/understeer, it'll just stiffen up the strut towers which I suppose you can't get too much of. I don't really feel that 510s need strut tower braces... they're pretty damn rigid from the factory. I can jack my car up from one front corner, and the other front corner will come up as well lol

[Son_of_a_Datsun_Guy]

Yeah i've never really seen a strut tower brace I liked, always felt they should have three points of contact instead of two (somewhere on the firewall as well as the towers)

 

I'm running 200lb coils up front and 200lb leafs in back which may be why I have so much roll and need a rear bar.

[INDY510]

Does all this apply to 4drs as well? I have wicked amounts of body roll that I need to get rid of. I keep getting close to pulling the trigger on a set (front/rear) but I never do...

 

I run #225 front and rear coilovers .. . . with NO rear sway bar .. . #200 is better for a street / not slammed car ......

 

... handles SO much better than any 510 I've driven with D50 springs/camaro shocks/ and a rear sway bar (that I broke in half)

 

With #225 rear coilovers it feels WAY stiffer than it ever did with a rear bar,, , almost too stiff,,,, Troy reccomends #200 for street cars to limit wheel-spin during hard corners

 

.... my back tires were constantly hitting the inner fender bump,, so I needed limited/no spring travel .... and my camber=wheelspin

[datzenmike]

If the world was flat, sway bars would control body roll on hard turns. But in the real world corners are not always level nor are straights. If the road lifts on one side but not, or to a lesser degree, on the other side an over stiff sway bar can lift the other wheel off the pavement or lift it enough to loose traction.

[Uber Deaf One]

If the world was flat, sway bars would control body roll on hard turns. But in the real world corners are not always level nor are straights. If the road lifts on one side but not, or to a lesser degree, on the other side an over stiff sway bar can lift the other wheel off the pavement or lift it enough to loose traction.

 

Another reason why I don't run a rear bar.... my car is ridiculously smooth over bumps. My dad's '09 Mazdaspeed 3 has aftermarket sway bars front and rear... otherwise the suspension is stock. My car actually has a smoother ride... even with 275/300 lb springs. He has to set his swaybar on the stiffest setting to get the car to handle well.. which means when he hits bumps, his awesome IRS doesn't soak them up.

[Uber Deaf One]

With #225 rear coilovers it feels WAY stiffer than it ever did with a rear bar,, , almost too stiff,,,, Troy reccomends #200 for street cars to limit wheel-spin during hard corners

 

.... my back tires were constantly hitting the inner fender bump,, so I needed limited/no spring travel .... and my camber=wheelspin

 

A lot of this depends on the ride heights you have the car at as well... I wouldn't be surprised if you told me all of your 510s have been really low :P Low is great but you reach a point where going lower actually hurts handling. I'm guessing you use stock rear crossmembers as well.... lots of camber? :P Even with -2 degrees of camber in the back of my 510 I don't have issues with wheel spin while cornering.

[INDY510]

Even with -2 degrees of camber in the back of my 510 I don't have issues with wheel spin while cornering.

 

Lol whut??? ....... even if I raised the whole rear suspension 4 inches there would still be negative camber ...... :lol:

 

[Uber Deaf One]

I never said anything about 0 camber lol.

 

I think you're confusing wheel spin with the rear tires losing grip while cornering under full power. If that is happening to you, all you need to do is use less throttle ;)

 

But there are lots of different ways to setup a car. I like my cars more on the loose side so I can steer with the throttle. Some people like to be able to get back to full throttle mid-corner without spinning. This typically requires a much tighter car setup.

[troyt]

As you can see from your simple question "what front/rear swaybar combo should I try for my wagon", there is no simple answer. Some opinions will just be regurgitation, some will actually be tried and tested. My suggestions are start small, make it adjustable, and one step at a time. With more than one change you don't know which one made the improvement (or made things worse). But remember that stiffer spring/bar rates on old, soft, stock bushings are an absolute waste of time and money.

 

Every car/driver combo will require different suspension and steering settings. Tire size, ride height, camber settings, shock valving - they all effect the spring/bar combo that will work for your car. I've been changing spring rate, bar rate, and camber settings on my wagon for two years trying to get it just right. But if you just want to try something to bolt on, a 7/8" front and 5/8" rear will probably get you started. ST makes some good stuff as well.

[DRIVEN]

Troy, your answer makes perfect sense. There is no one size fits all combination. I get that.

 

Now for a couple unorthidox ideas. Anyone have any experience with either of these approaches?

Dual (stacked) bars http://forums.turbob...read.php?t=9587

"Sway bars" for leaf springs http://community.rat...-bars-for-sale/

[troyt]

Interesting read on the Volvo double-bars, thanks for posting the link. Not a bad idea for an inexpensive upgrade, but doubling the weight and complexity while reusing old rubber bushings, hmmm.... Now the Datto rear bars are another story, can't see a bit of physics there. I love thinking outside the box (ie an IRS racewagon), but you can't go wrong with simple and adjustable.