Anyone want to buy new 320 vent window rubbers?

[wayno]

320 Newb, are you talking about the Phils Rotory products guy in Australia whose first name is Phil that lives in Brendale Australia near Brisbane Australia or is this Phil someone else?

Edited November 23, 2018 by wayno

[320 Newb]

I'm sure it's the same Phil.

[wayno]

Do not send that Phils Rotory Produts guy any money outside of Ebay, I was talking to that guy in late 2013 about making 320 wing window gaskets, nothing has happened with that in 5 years as he will not pay for the molds himself, if someone pays for the molds and once the molds are made everyone will make money except you the one that paid for the molds as they will sell gaskets out the back door using your molds for way cheaper than you could ever sell them for as they did pay for the molds.

I have a friend that lives very close to that guy and he would never give that guy any money and he lives right there near that guy, so you would not have a chance of getting your money back once it was sent to that guy.

My friend said if that Phil guy is selling already made 320 wing window gaskets on ebay then buy them, you can get your money back if they do not fit or arrive, and sending money thru paypal for molds is not any better than wiring money to him as by the time you know he has screwed you over it is going to be too late for a Paypal claim.

I really should keep my mouth shut, as if you pay for the molds all the rest of us will be able to buy 320 gaskets on ebay for cheap from people in Asia.

It would not surprise me at all if the 521 wing window gaskets on ebay Australia that only Phil had at first, that are now being sold out of Thailand, my guess is they would be made from the same molds that Phil was getting his gaskets from, but now they are screwing Phil.

I think that the only way us Datsun 320 owners could get wing window gaskets made without losing all our money is to get 70 to 100 people to pay $200.00 ahead of time for each set they want, that would likely pay for the molds and pay for the run at a US manufacturer, Eric looked into this several years ago, but I am unsure if we could even get half the needed people to commit and send their hard earned money.

Edited January 13, 2019 by wayno

[320 Newb]

I'm not sending any money to Phil but I'm definitely down to pay 200 up front if its a legit deal. 

 

Does anyone on here have a nice set that could be scanned to have molds made? I'm happy to contact some places to get quotes.

 

[wayno]

Well we would only need at least 66 other people as I would need 3 sets, the more people/sets ordered and paid for the more likely it could happen.

Keep in mind that someone else(not me) did all the legwork on the US end years ago and things change, remember I said I thought it would be the only way to not lose our money, this is just speculation right now, I actually do not know who it was for sure that looked into this, but I can say with reasonable certainty that neither person I am thinking of, which one looked into this wing window gasket reproduction thing in the US have Datsun 320s anymore.

I tried at least 2 different times, the best used set I had was sent off to Jordan, then they were returned as they wanted to produce them in Syria, but that was when all that shit hit the fan over there, I also talked to that Phil guy which after talking to my friend about him was deemed not safe, the other guy whos job was rubber parts just like this sent a set to his China rubber parts producers and they had no interest, there was talk about 3D printing them, I never actually tried Clauss Studios, but I suspected they were way too complicated for him so I never called and asked the guy, it takes forever to get anything solid/a commitment from him, maybe he could do them.

[320 Newb]

Just out of curiosity I reached out to Central Rubber Extrusions https://www.centralrubberextrusions.com/ in Illinois to see what it might cost to have the wing window rubbers made. I sent photos and this is the price quote for gaskets with molded (vulcanized) corners:

Die Tooling: $2350.00

Material: $16.50 per

So to have 50 made it'd be $61.50 per gasket, so $123 per set.

 

Am I missing something or does this seem kind of doable? 

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by 320 Newb

[Conner]

I would definitely buy a set at that price. 

I would make sure they know that these are not a simple extrusion that is uniform, it changes shape significantly along the length. 

What do they need to provide a formal quote/contract for the work?  Assuming they need one, do you (or someone else on here) have a good set to provide to them?  

[320 Newb]

I've got a set but I'm not sure I'd call them good. They might be OK. Also I've only sent them pics, not a sample so they don't 100% know what they're getting into. 

[wayno]

I have one passenger side wing window gasket that is almost completely intacked, the thin piece of rubber on the outside where the upper vivot is that is supposed to slide over the vivot tang is still there but cracked thru on the upper end, the gasket on other side(drivers side) is not even close to the same shape.

There is a rumor that this outfit in Oregon has a NOS set, but to this day they have never admitted having it, but I do not know if anyone has ever asked them in person either.

The quote a guy got several years ago from a US company was not even near this quote, the tooling was way more, in my opinion this might be worth chacing, at least one gasket needs to be sent to them so they know for sure what we are asking them to make.

 

 

[ol' 320]

Newbie:

 

I made several attempts to have new vent rubbers made domestically in the USA. I tried Lynn Steele (Super high end quality for classic car and hard to get rubber goods) and got a quote of approx. $7500 to make two precision molds (left and right). Then to make a practical short run (based on efficiency, not cost) was for a run of 50. This was years ago so I don't remember if this was for 25 sets or 50 sets.

 

IF you do this, make sure you have an agreement where you "own" the molds, so the manufacturer is contractually prevented from selling these parts without your participation. Also, I suggest you discuss making these out of EPDM )Ethylene-Propylene-Diene-Monomer), which is well known for its excellent "ozone, weathering, and aging resistance." I copied that description from the manufacturer you listed, because it illustrates the material properties I was told by virtually all three of the rubber extruders I talked to.

 

It would be a shame to go to all this effort and not upgrade to ozone-resistant material so these last longer than OEM before deteriorating.

 

Most importantly, unless you have money to burn, I would want commitments from people who will buy these.

 

With that said, there was a very unfortunate debacle a few years ago on this very site when people paid in advance for new extended cab 620 window rubbers. 

 

I would become a PM to take this offline so as not to cause angst on this forum or break any "for sale" rules. If the price is anywhere close to what you put out there in your post , I will buy two sets. I sold my 320 to a buddy, who uses it to haul his vintage Norton and BSA to bike shows. But someday this truck is most likely coming back to me.

 

Before you do anything, search ratsun for the 620 extended cab rubber gasket threads. Just saying.... go into this with your eyes wide open.

 

DOn't let me discourage you. There are a few of us who would dearly love to see quality reproductions made!

[ol' 320]

I also looked at the other option.... having a tool and die guy make three piece molds that would result in nice glued together rubbers. These were more economical, but the process results in molds that would likely only hold up for a run of about 75 pieces before failing. I was targeting a retired Boeing tool and die guy who has made short run pieces for Toyotas and some older classic cars.

 

It would have still cost about $300 a set to produce 75 sets, and then I would have to have gambled that I could sell them instead of ending up with a pile o' parts in the garage.

 

Everybody says they want stuff until they actually have to write you a check:)

Edited December 21, 2018 by ol' 320
spelling

[320 Newb]

I'm excited but this whole thing makes me really nervous, especially the money stuff. 

 

Wayno, do you think they could use your one good rubber to make dies for both L and R side gaskets? Would it be worth sending them one? Or does anyone here want to maybe talk to the rep I've been talking to? I'm afraid without seeing one they might be giving me a lowball quote because they don't know what they're getting into.

 

If I can get in at $150 wholesale or so per set I might be willing to roll the dice on buying a run of 50. I'd probably want maybe $225 per set to help recoup my money. $3500 is a ton of money for me and I'd be up shit creek if I had to eat 50 sets of gaskets.

 

Or does anyone else want to take this on? I'd rather just pay $225 for one set myself than take on the financial risk and pain in the ass of selling/shipping 50 sets. ?

 

 

[ol' 320]

I recall these are "opposites" so you would need a left and right mold.o find someone with a good pair or the best possible condition pair of rubbers to make molds from. It may be possible for a good mold maker to take good condition or even fair condition even rubbers and fill them with temp material to make god quality molds.... but this depends on who is making the molds.he

 

At one time there was talk of having someone scan these and 3d print a set. These would not be adequate to use, form what I have learned about 3d materials, but a 3d scan might be able to be modified digitally to create a perfect model that could be translated into a permanent mold. In other words, scan the best used pair available, then fix it digitally and use that file to make a mold or to print a temp rubber part that could be used to produce a mold. I really don't have the expertise for this discussion as I have not personally molded or scanned parts like this.

 

I did pay a lot of money about 30 years ago to reproduce some old oval window door latches that were made in a limited run, but that was "checkbook" parts making. 

 

 

Eric

 

[wayno]

I only have the one good piece, considering how old it is I think it is good, the other side(drivers side) is not in near as good shape.

I really don't need the drama involved with going thru all the effort to have them made and then trying to sell them, I did my part with the windshields and them gaskets, it's someone elses turn, I didn't have anyone not buy the windshield after they said they would, but I sat on windshield gaskets for a long time as they were not cheap to have made so i could not sell them cheap either, and I did not make any money from any of that windshield/gasket thing, I likely lost money, but I didn't keep track on purpose.

It seems to me that if they can scan a good gasket with a computer to make a mold, then they could reverse it for the oppisite side, but if they are doing it old school by using a good gasket to make a mold, then you need 2 good left/right gaskets to start with.

 

Eric gave some good advice a few posts back, if your paying for the molds you need to own them and have them in your possession after the run, as what happens overseas in Asia will happen to you also, you pay to have the molds made, they do a run for you and sell you them gaskets, then they make another run for others they know and sell to them for much less money or for the same money, and then all of a sudden appear on ebay for less money than you need to charge for them as you need to recoupe your money for having the molds made.

[datzenmike]

I remember years ago there was a group buy for 620 window rubber gaskets. It dragged on for over 2 years with nothing but excuses from the fella who was dealing with the manufacturer over seas. It ended as a total fuck up and I don't think everyone got their down payment back. To this day everything sold in the classifieds has to actually exist in the seller's hand and no money asked in advance.

 

Just be advised....

[320 Newb]

@datzenmike I get it.The other dude sounds like an idiot--dealing with an overseas manufacturer and taking down payments on Ratsun? What could go wrong? ? 

 

I'm just opening the conversation and honestly I think it's a stretch. Best case scenario it'd be $7K up front and about $150 wholesale per set. The per-set cost seems doable but I don't have $7K. Also my conversation with the manufacturer is in the early stages. They haven't laid eyes on the gasket so chances are the cost estimate is artificially low. 

 

 

[320 Newb]

If I had $7K to burn I'd be looking for an NL to buy haha. 

[datzenmike]

That's what we all thought. ? There was lots of interest.

[datzenmike]

From late 2007 and into 2012. It was starting to unravel by page 12 of 18. https://ratsun.net/topic/7161-620-king-cab-window-gaskets/?page=12

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Does the buy in include "adjustments"? If you send them a 55 year old window rubber, which has undoubtedly shrunk over the years, and they make a mold to that exact spec, and then you try it out and find it does in fact not fit, will they make adjustments? Or will they charge you for another mold?

 

My manufacturing shop lets me test fit parts before we settle on a final design. That's part of the initial cost, and it's agreed upon up front.

 

I've said it before, if someone finally is able to get these rubbers made, I will buy a set, if not two.  I don't even own a Datsun anymore, but with rubbers available, I would go buy another 320.

[datzenmike]

Well I imagine that there is the wing window and it's fitment without the rubber. Could IT be scanned to make a mold with a 3d printer??

 

What about  using a substance that is malleable but hardens like rubber? Mold by hand onto the wing window that's prepared with a non stick agent like lecithin or commercial mold release agent, let set and remove? 

[320 Newb]

5 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Does the buy in include "adjustments"? If you send them a 55 year old window rubber, which has undoubtedly shrunk over the years, and they make a mold to that exact spec, and then you try it out and find it does in fact not fit, will they make adjustments? Or will they charge you for another mold?

 

My manufacturing shop lets me test fit parts before we settle on a final design. That's part of the initial cost, and it's agreed upon up front.

 

I've said it before, if someone finally is able to get these rubbers made, I will buy a set, if not two.  I don't even own a Datsun anymore, but with rubbers available, I would go buy another 320.

 

Good questions. The conversation with the manufacturer has stalled out over the Holidays. 

 

Phil Muffet from Australia has a good set and has generously offered to 3D scan them and send me the digital files, which I will send to the manufacturer for a better quote.

 

With the shrinkage issue, could a manufacturer just bump them up by 5% or something conservative that'd pretty much guarantee a fit? I could be wrong but I feel like people pull out old ones for paint and reuse them so even with the shrinkage they fit back in there. 

[mklotz70]

The manufacture should have an "exact" percentage of shrinkage based on the material used and the mass of the material.  The mass may not matter.  The shrinkage should be pretty linear for a given material.  I don't know how to do it, but mold makers have to account for it when making molds.

[320 Newb]

Here's a few more details from Central Rubber Extrusions:

-50 units would be 16.50 each, die tooling for footage would be $500 and $1250 for molded corner die.  Total of $2,575 for 50 units (one side, double it for both sides)

-Material would be 60 Durometer EPDM

-Die wear may occur after 100,000 linear footage

-The Die is assigned to you, retained at Central Rubber, if you wanted the physical dies the cost would be $1000 for die mold, and $2500 for  corner mold die.  

-Next step would be to get them a sample

 

 

[Draker]

So 68 bux per side before markup  and shipping?