Auto trans 411 owners!

[AZhitman]

I'm 99% done with my restoration. Took her out of the garage under her own power last night, went around the block slowly, just checking for leaks, shakes, etc. Got some minior sorting to do, but nothing critical.

 

She wouldn't get down into first gear (manually or otherwise). I've checked linkage adjustment. Only thing I can think of, is the cable-actuated kickdown (which I had to rebuild from scratch) is acting up, BUT I had it manually pulled "up" (so it should theoretically already BE in 1st gear... unless I'm not nuderstanding how that mechanism works.

 

Anyhow, I remember seeing something SOMEWHERE on how to adjust the kickdown linkage (they recommended having it done by a properly-equipped shop, whatever that means). Anyone know where I may have seen that document?

[MikeRL411]

I'm 99% done with my restoration. Took her out of the garage under her own power last night, went around the block slowly, just checking for leaks, shakes, etc. Got some minior sorting to do, but nothing critical.

 

She wouldn't get down into first gear (manually or otherwise). I've checked linkage adjustment. Only thing I can think of, is the cable-actuated kickdown (which I had to rebuild from scratch) is acting up, BUT I had it manually pulled "up" (so it should theoretically already BE in 1st gear... unless I'm not nuderstanding how that mechanism works.

 

Anyhow, I remember seeing something SOMEWHERE on how to adjust the kickdown linkage (they recommended having it done by a properly-equipped shop, whatever that means). Anyone know where I may have seen that document?

I think that was a post I made a while ago. To adjust you have to tap into the fluids and measure the fluid pressure and that may cause a transmission failure if not properly timed and done. I have the proceedure from my old repair manual and can retype it and post here [less pictures, my scanner is misbehaving] if it will help, but the manual does recommend the proceedure be done by a qualified transmission shop / mechanic. The basic rule is never tamper with the length of the downshift cable and never lubricate it. It has been a while since I had anything done to my transmission but I think I dimly recall that pulling the cable "up" shifts it into second gear for passing.

[datzenmike]

You are saying that it starts in 1st and shifts normally through the gears in DRIVE, but you cannot get it to kick down into first or use the gear shift to get it to shift into 1st?

 

If the shift lever is out of adjustment and the transmission 'thinks' it is in second, (instead if FIRST) this will over ride the kick down cable. The gear selector on the floor may say FIRST but it is possibly only in the SECOND.

[MikeRL411]

You are saying that it starts in 1st and shifts normally through the gears in DRIVE, but you cannot get it to kick down into first or use the gear shift to get it to shift into 1st?"

 

Yes! A true statement. Park, reverse, drive, and low are your choices.

 

"If the shift lever is out of adjustment and the transmission 'thinks' it is in second, (instead if FIRST) this will over ride the kick down cable. The gear selector on the floor may say FIRST but it is possibly only in the SECOND.

 

The gear selector for the BW automatic is not on the floor. It's a column shift. The actual transmission gear select is a rotating shaft pinned between a socket machined into the transmission housing and a corresponding socket bolted to the left front sub frame [for the RL411, the right hand rule R411 versions would have the selector and sockets on the right side of the transmission]. It has the necessary linkages to select the transmission gears. In any case, properly adjusted or not, if you floor the gas pedal the shift cable downshifts to second gear. No vacuum modulator, just simple mechanical push pull operation.

[AZhitman]

I think that was a post I made a while ago. To adjust you have to tap into the fluids and measure the fluid pressure and that may cause a transmission failure if not properly timed and done. I have the proceedure from my old repair manual and can retype it and post here [less pictures, my scanner is misbehaving] if it will help, but the manual does recommend the proceedure be done by a qualified transmission shop / mechanic. The basic rule is never tamper with the length of the downshift cable and never lubricate it. It has been a while since I had anything done to my transmission but I think I dimly recall that pulling the cable "up" shifts it into second gear for passing.

 

Ok, cool. Glad I'm not losing my marbles.

 

The cable was shot. I actually MADE a new one, similar in length to the old one, because the thing was binding and the housing was cracked and spewing fluid all over.

 

Yes, pulling it "up" would result in a downshift, as it "pulls" when the throttle mechanism is wide-open.

 

Getting it to the trans shop that rebuilt the trans could be a challenge. 35 miles away in Phoenix traffic. :(

 

Question: Once it's in the "up" position (a downshift), what returns the trans to the next higher gear? Hydraulic pressure? Reason being, the mechanism is currently in the "up" position (cable pulled).

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Found this on another forum:

 

The BW autos have either a shifter cable, or a vacuum modulator (a few have both).

 

NOTICE: The shifter cable adjustment is CRITICAL! This directly controls internal clutch pressures. It's not a "kickdown cable", it's a throttle cable. Unless yours is now ruined from driving with it out of adjustment for a long time, setting it according to the Factory Technical Service Manual will make it shift perfectly. You can even control the up and downshift points by adding or subtracting half-turns to the cable clevis.

_____________

 

And, I just located the service manual for the B/W 35 transmission. It's printing right now... We'll see how confused I am after I look at it. :(

[mklotz70]

Not to hijack, but there's a 411 manual section started on olddatsuns.com....if anyone has a scan of the factory manual...or parts of it and want me to put it up there...get in touch with me :)

[MikeRL411]

Question: Once it's in the "up" position (a downshift), what returns the trans to the next higher gear? Hydraulic pressure? Reason being, the mechanism is currently in the "up" position (cable pulled).

 

Normally, releasing pressure on the gas pedal allows the cable to relax and resume shifting since the cable is driven off the horizontal carb acceleration shaft. It sounds as though if you returned the cable to the "down" position you would shift normally except that you might not downshift to pass. Having the Borg Warner manual is probably your savior!

[AZhitman]

Normally, releasing pressure on the gas pedal allows the cable to relax and resume shifting since the cable is driven off the horizontal carb acceleration shaft. It sounds as though if you returned the cable to the "down" position you would shift normally except that you might not downshift to pass. Having the Borg Warner manual is probably your savior!

 

OK. Seems there's no spring or mechanism to pull it back, but I'll need to take another look. Dropping pan now.

 

Oh, and a hearty SCREW YOU to Borg-Warner for building a great transmission with NO DRAIN PLUG. Guess who's gonna drill a hole and weld in a bung? :)

[Charlie69]

Greg, sorry to here you are having problems. Have you called Ernie about the problem?

[AZhitman]

Not yet.

 

Pulled the pan and adjusted the cable, and took it for a drive. It kicked down on WOT, but it didn't retract.

 

Hate to try and drive it clear down there, but might be the only way to roll.

[MikeRL411]

AZHitmen said "Oh, and a hearty SCREW YOU to Borg-Warner for building a great transmission with NO DRAIN PLUG. Guess who's gonna drill a hole and weld in a bung"

 

It was done for a reason. BW wants you to adjust the front and rear bands and replace the filter with each fluid change. Granted, it's a bit messy but loosening the pan bolts and tipping the pan down into a drip pan works.

[MikeRL411]

OK. Seems there's no spring or mechanism to pull it back, but I'll need to take another look. Dropping pan now.

 

The mechanical downshift cable is driven off the shaft that controls the SU carbs. Look on the right side of the SUs just below the Heim Joints that connect the carbs to the shaft. You should find 2 coil springs stretching from the SU drive lever to the heat shield between the carbs and the exhaust manifold. Believe it or not, these 2 springs are the return force for your downshift cable and your accelerator pedal. Hope this is the answer for you.

[AZhitman]

The mechanical downshift cable is driven off the shaft that controls the SU carbs. Look on the right side of the SUs just below the Heim Joints that connect the carbs to the shaft. You should find 2 coil springs stretching from the SU drive lever to the heat shield between the carbs and the exhaust manifold. Believe it or not, these 2 springs are the return force for your downshift cable and your accelerator pedal. Hope this is the answer for you.

 

Thanks Mike - There's no way that a cable has enough rigidity to rotate that cam back into position. It's like pushing a wet spaghetti noodle across a table.

 

Those springs are present and functional, but the downshift cable just flexes where it's out of its sleeve.

 

This could be a problem. :(

[AZhitman]

AZHitmen said "Oh, and a hearty SCREW YOU to Borg-Warner for building a great transmission with NO DRAIN PLUG. Guess who's gonna drill a hole and weld in a bung"

 

It was done for a reason. BW wants you to adjust the front and rear bands and replace the filter with each fluid change. Granted, it's a bit messy but loosening the pan bolts and tipping the pan down into a drip pan works.

 

I found the drain plug. It's actually kinda obvious, so apparently I'm a bit retarded. There's a threaded plug with an allen head in the front right corner of the pan.

[Charlie69]

Sounds like you need a good stock cable. The one you made is too flexible. Does any one have one used or one to use as a sample to make one from?

 

I know Datsun Don in Mesa AZ had a Borg warner auto trans, maybe he has a cable. Datsun Don Cell 480 234-2211

[MikeRL411]

Sounds like you need a good stock cable. The one you made is too flexible. Does any one have one used or one to use as a sample to make one from?

 

I know Datsun Don in Mesa AZ had a Borg warner auto trans, maybe he has a cable. Datsun Don Cell 480 234-2211

 

A shot in the dark! Maybe a shift cable from a 10 speed racing bike or motorcycle would be stiff enough if you have to refabricate? They are designed to take push and pull stresses.

[AZhitman]

A shot in the dark! Maybe a shift cable from a 10 speed racing bike or motorcycle would be stiff enough if you have to refabricate? They are designed to take push and pull stresses.

 

 

I used a standard bike cable... too thin apparently.

 

What a lame design.

 

I've never seen a cable setup that pushes as well as pulls... what application would use that?

[Paul G.]

Old style lawn mower throttle cable. These are often a loosely fitted all metal cable assembly that can push and pull. The "cable" is a solid wire and the guide is like a continuous spring. Like this.

[MikeRL411]

I've never seen a cable setup that pushes as well as pulls... what application would use that?

You own one.

[AZhitman]

You own one.

 

I meant BESIDES my B-W 35. :P

[mklotz70]

is the hood release cable to weak? You can get crimping ferrules and cable clamps at Home Depot. I'll try to remember to look at my 411 trans in the shed...I know it has the cable on it, but I've never spent any time looking at it. I'm going to put the entire trans up for sale soon anyway....might as well get a couple of pics :)

[AZhitman]

Want to sell me the cable, Mike? :)

[mklotz70]

Considering the grief you're having, it would have to be for the cost of the entire tranny since what would be left would be pretty much scrap. LOL :)

 

Seriously....I've already got a local trade in the works. I'll post it up if that doesn't work out, but I'm pretty sure it will :)

[MikeRL411]

Seriously, the British Borg Warner transmission was used in most European cars including Austin, SAAB and Volvo as well as Ford / Mercury compact imports. I have gotten the filter and gasket set from Ford / Mercury dealers in the past, so go to any local Mercury [or Ford] dealer before he/she dissapears and ask for the downshift cable. The worst thing that can happen is that you will give the counterman a good laugh.

[AZhitman]

No luck there either.

 

After an exhaustive search, I'm gonna go with this: http://www.jegs.com/i/Lokar/625/KDP-2AODHT/10002/-1?CT=999