_chiefjt Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 Oh okay. And I would push out more than 135 horse cause it's a 2.4l and not a 1.8l right? How much stock horsepower do you think I could get? Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 The CA18ET was about 130 hp so I assume a Z18ET would be similar. A Z18 is 33% larger than a Z24 so you could expect 33% more than 130hp or about 170 hp. This would be with 6-8 PSI boost? Maybe less if doing a blow through carb set up. Maybe more if using an inter cooler as well. Quote Link to comment
_chiefjt Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 Wow! That sounds way better than stock 103 hp. But you said that the intake ports on the z24 head are different. Could I machine the z18 intake to match it or go with a z22 head? I would like to keep the z24 head though. Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 Well to be clear... IF you are going to use the Z18ET intake and try to run EFI then the port shape and how to seal against the Z24 head may be a small problem. BUT if all you are going to do is run the Z18ET turbo and exhaust manifold and build a blow through system with a carb then your Z24 intake is fine and can be left as is. Quote Link to comment
_chiefjt Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 So then scratch the z24 head. Since the z22 head is a bolt on to the z24 block then the z18et intake will fit. But I'm wondering I it makes a difference since the z18 head doesn't have 8 spark plugs? Quote Link to comment
ggzilla Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 Well they are making160 HP from stock A12 engine with turbo. As said, a/f ratio and timing are the most critical factors. Quote Link to comment
_chiefjt Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 Thanks for all the good info. I think I'll get another z24 an just build on it. Try different things to see what works and what doesn't. Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 So then scratch the z24 head. Since the z22 head is a bolt on to the z24 block then the z18et intake will fit. Again, I'll post the picture of the Z24 and the Z22 heads below. The bolt pattern is the same. The shapes of the ports are different. I haven't said they will not work. Just there may be concern that the gasket will seal properly in the long run and under boost pressure. My guess it that it will work if sealed properly. Again if running a blow through carb st up this isn't a problem as you can leave your Z24 intake on there. But I'm wondering I it makes a difference since the z18 head doesn't have 8 spark plugs? Pretty sure they are dual plug heads. Quote Link to comment
_chiefjt Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 I know the z24 and z22 ports are different, I was just saying since the z18 intake and z22 ports match, it will fit. Wasn't sure if it was 8 spark plug or not. Couldnt find any clean pictures. But anyways, i was just asking to see if I can turn a z24 to fuel injection. Quote Link to comment
ggzilla Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 Yes it can be done. They even came factory with fuel injection. Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 I think it was more throttle body injection. Still EFI I guess. Even in '85 it was pretty primitive, not sure how much boost it will handle. Sealick used port injection from a 200sx Z20E motor on his Z24. Had to adjust the MAF to run richer.. Quote Link to comment
medengines Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 Things to know, blowthru doesnt need to have a intercooler to make good power and keep cool...like a efi set-up does. The carb itself is the intercooler in a sense.the raw fuel creates heat dissapation..and it works very well. Of course their probably are limits to it, i have read somewhere over 30 psi!! then you'd require intercooling. thats a shitload of boost! The manifold swap to a Z18 deal isn't worth it to me..just make or have someone weld you a log or a tube type manifold out of mild steel steam pipe from a supplier where you are. heavy guage and strong..to find a Z18 for parts will likely be very very hard. The manifolds (intake and exhaust) would definately swap to a z22 or z24, same stuff. If i was going to do one again for cheap and good ass power this is a parts list: 2300 holley 2 barrel(350cfm or 500cfm) EBAY$80 to 120 maybe, Bosch 044 pump Napa maybe $180 to 200, mallory bypass 4309 regulator forget price?, adapter for 2 barrel to mount stock intake $20bucks, 1/2" fuel lines feed and return from tank to reg and back to tank. disconnect the vaccum advance at distributor crank it back to 20 degrees total and you done. run it at about 12 psi boost on pump gas with stock parts. Or if your dead set on EFI..maybe due a Megasquirt to control just the injector/fuel side and a MSD 6ls i think it is ? this has a programmable timing feature..set your own curve and boost retard and all..youd have to lock out the centrif advance in the distributor and reference the megasquirt straight of the tach wire..easy to do.. Or do a full megasquirt for ignition too..use the Ford EDIS deal. the Z24 will take it for sure..we weighed our combo stock ST 720 truck with airconditioning, leaf suspension, no gutting or weight saving done. weighs in at 2725lbs with driver 200lb and fuel. to me that is heavy..It's making over 300 horsepower at the wheels. combo is stock crank, conn rods, some head porting, valve and seat work and wiseco forged pistons. Just turbo it! Quote Link to comment
ggzilla Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 Yes, a budget turbo can work extremely well. EFI does not require intercooling either. I've heard 15 lbs of boost without it. It's just that you'll make more power with it. Same as with a carburetor - a carbureted turbo motor can make more power cooled than not cooled. Quote Link to comment
medengines Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 Yes, a budget turbo can work extremely well. EFI does not require intercooling either. I've heard 15 lbs of boost without it. It's just that you'll make more power with it. Same as with a carburetor - a carbureted turbo motor can make more power cooled than not cooled. No your wrong...a carb is a totally different Animal..it wont make more power from a addition of an intercooler..it will change when or if using a higher amount of boost and create more heat in the engine....But not anywhere the "same" as a fuel injected engine. The carb is an intercooler. Bill Lutz used a twin turbo'd BBC combo with "no intercooler"..he would've used a intercooler if it was needed to make more power! Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 Yes the fuel evaporating absorbs heat but it does that on a N/A motor too and doesn't provide any 'extra' just because it's under boost. Boost concentrates the ambient heat in the air just like compression in a diesel engine. The heat can get so high that pre ignition can happen. An intercooler will shed heat and this allows more boost without the risk of detonation. More boost will make more power because the air is cooler and denser. If you are not making more power with an IC, you are doing something wrong. There is a limit to how much extra gas you can dump into the mix before power drops off from an over rich condition. An IC will cause some turbo lag as there is more intake volume to compress. Bill Lutz used a twin turbo'd BBC combo with "no intercooler"..he would've used a intercooler if it was needed to make more power! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA8DE7-DeeU&feature=player_detailpage It's very likely he uses alcohol injection to cool the intake air. Can you find out. Quote Link to comment
medengines Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 His setup didnt use any cooler it was straight to the carb..and no meth! there are many other combos outthere with the same whether it was turbo or big centrifugal blowers with big boost..no coolers were used..the carb/fuel pulls the heat out during its transfer..i am simply trying to explain that it isn't "always" needed to be used for "big power" in a blowthru combo because of this effect, call it a bonus!...making it easier and less "costly" to build a combo with. i hear it alot..you cant boost it over 2 pounds without a intercooler!...shit i've done 26+psi, guys have done 36+ without a ping at all. You would not be able to do that if you are boosting a EFI combo with out meth or a cooler of some sort...exception is if it was a "rear mounted" turbo EFI...all the long tubing would act like a intercooler to cool the charge air on its long travels up to the intake. i will try and log temp readings at the hat and after the the carb on the intake tract and see what is going on during full runs. need some iat sensors! Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Oh absolutely, I agree you don't have to have an IC at all. Usually people have them because they can run the same or more boost without the risk of pre ignition. You can reduce this risk other ways too. Quote Link to comment
ggzilla Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Hmm... I wonder why some carbureted engines use an intercooler. a carb is a totally different Animal..it wont make more power from a addition of an intercooler Quote Link to comment
medengines Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Hmmm.....maybe i can explain it for you......well some are misinformed like yourself, and chose the wrong turbo or blower for their particular application (too small) and now are trying to build a given psi or boost and are superheating the air building too mch heat and are now trying to mask that heat thru a intercoolercooler, and now they have to turn it up even more to get the same boost and it creates a snow ball effect that is counterproductive!!! When they really needed a bigger blower/turbo to keep up and not superheat the air! Or in some cases they chose the wrong fuel suppy(not enough volume or wrong fuel regulator dsign)and are having lean issues and were maybe led to that direction from someone else but are not fixing the right problem! Others are looking for a particular "look" for their build and just plain want one? Others are maybe doing it so they can turn up the boost without worry of detonation or changing timing or fuel octane and do just what Datzenmike was talking about above! Again i am not against using one i just think it is not always needed for a combo, a bonus. Look i was doing this for a long time, didn't just start building these! And Yes the Carb set-up is still a different Animal than a EFI combo..Did my first blowthru in the late 90's. Quote Link to comment
ggzilla Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Thanks. I didn't realize the car manufacturers and aircraft engine builders were misinformed when they fitted intercoolers to carbureted engines. i am not against using oneSounded like you are when you said "a carb ... wont make more power from a addition of an intercooler". i just think it is not always needed for a comboyes, we said it was not needed. Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Weather you use a small or large turbo 10 PSI is 10PSI and all compressed gasses concentrate the heat that is already in them. The turbo or super charger doesn't make heat or heat the air... at least in any significant way. Compressing the air raises the temp. Just like a diesel's high compression raises the compressed air temperature high enough to ignite diesel fuel without a spark.. Cooler air is denser air and when compressed in a motor is much more detonation resistant than warm air. Because of this (all other things equal) you can safely run more boost, less octane (if you choose) and more advance than a set up without an inter cooler. You can run a blow through with or without an inter cooler. Shrug..totally up to the builder, but reducing the air temperature before going into a motor is always better than trying to deal with it later. (reduced advance, richer mixtures, ceramic coated pistons/combustion chamber, oil squirters for the piston bottoms, forged pistons, oil cooler) All these will reduce or help a motor survive when running at the edge of detonation. Why not reduce the cause right at the start? Quote Link to comment
FricFrac Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Weather you use a small or large turbo 10 PSI is 10PSI and all compressed gasses concentrate the heat that is already in them. The turbo or super charger doesn't make heat or heat the air... at least in any significant way. Compressing the air raises the temp. Just like a diesel's high compression raises the compressed air temperature high enough to ignite diesel fuel without a spark.. Cooler air is denser air and when compressed in a motor is much more detonation resistant than warm air. Because of this (all other things equal) you can safely run more boost, less octane (if you choose) and more advance than a set up without an inter cooler. You can run a blow through with or without an inter cooler. Shrug..totally up to the builder, but reducing the air temperature before going into a motor is always better than trying to deal with it later. (reduced advance, richer mixtures, ceramic coated pistons/combustion chamber, oil squirters for the piston bottoms, forged pistons, oil cooler) All these will reduce or help a motor survive when running at the edge of detonation. Why not reduce the cause right at the start? Actually a turbo does heat the air even when it's not compressing the air. I run around 40-50 deg C over ambiant when the turbo is up to temp AT IDLE on a mostly stock 280ZXT. A good reason to run a turbo blanket and/or water cooled to keep the heat out of the compressor side When you compress air with a turbo you add heat to that air. If your turbo is less efficient then you add even more heat. The extra heat isn't an issue unless it causes pre ignition. In an L series head you want to take as much heat out of the system as possible to remove head. Also when you reduce the heat in the intake air you increase the density and thus the available oxygen. An intercooler is a great way to increase the ability of the engine to safely make more power. The main issues with intercoolers is routing the pipes, air flow THROUGH the intercooler (eg most are poorly placed, no ducting to capture and direct air flow) and inappropriately sized intercoolers. You can also reduce presure drops by using large end tanks and short runners. Also don't forget about the thermal mass - typically the heavier the intercooler the more capability to remove heat before heat soak than a similar lighter version. Carbed turbo setups are not the way to go unless you are going for the "cool" factor or you've got a bunch of free parts available. You can do so much more with the same setup with a programable EFI system. I'm just in the process of converting an Z22 to EFI and turbo - sounds like it's going to be a nice setup once it's done :) http://community.ratsun.net/topic/48127-1969-datsun-510-2dr-z22-turbo-efi-build/ Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Actually a turbo does heat the air even when it's not compressing the air. I run around 40-50 deg C over ambiant when the turbo is up to temp AT IDLE on a mostly stock 280ZXT. A good reason to run a turbo blanket and/or water cooled to keep the heat out of the compressor side I wouldn't have thought that much... well all the more reason for an IC. Quote Link to comment
FricFrac Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 I was surprised. It's nice being able to view any of your sensor information with the Mega Squirt setup Quote Link to comment
FricFrac Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Interesting.... http://www.nissan-motorsports.com/ENN/NISSAN/HISTORY/Z/content02.html "The Z31 type Fairlady Z that was released in 1983 also hadn't been given a chance to compete in major domestic races as 2-seater sports cars didn't have any place to participate. But in 1983-1984, one of the prototype cars, the 'LM03C' that competed in the endurance events in Fuji and Suzuka, was given colouring portraying the image of the Z31, and was thus called the 'Fairlady Z-C'. The machine was equipped with the LZ20B straight 4-cylinder DOHC turbo engine that was later developed for the Nissan Group C cars." Quote Link to comment
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