1959 dream engine? (new thread title)

[fisch]

(((Edit- this thread has started going way beyond the initial scope it started with, so I had to change the title! Now we are talking little engines with grunt as a swap or mod for the '59!)))

 

Dudes someday we need a sticky with the basic measurements of various Nisan engines. If you know a site point me there please!

 

I have searched and searched the net to find out how long wide and tall CA series engines are and have come up with nothing. Can y'all help me out?

 

First, was the CA the smallest sized efi engine? (or is the KA, FJ and SR the same footprint?)

 

Anyone have measurements HxWxL (fully dressed with manifolds etc.) of:

 

A- CA18et

 

B- CA18det

 

C-VG30e

 

I am thinking of the 59 and was curious what modern engines would fit with out me cutting much at all. Turbo intercoolers are probably out unless I can fit it between the radiator and grill without cutting. And remember I might have to go with a pusher fan. This is a plus for the CA18et which had no intercooler.)

 

I don't need crazy HP in the 59 and the 135 hp and 141ft.lbs of torque the ca18et ran stock would do fine. As a bonus, it runs without an intercooler.:D

 

I also wondered what a single cam VG size is, and if it would fit. Crazy I know, but that sound! And if it weren't much more work than a CA or L, we have to at least entertain the thought!

 

Essentially we are dealing with about 27"W X 24" long with 18.5 between the framerails of the '59.:lol: (the top tank of the 59 radiator is twice as wide as the core BTW, so visually there are a couple more inches there.)

 

If not a CA, what do you think would be the best fit with the least cutting?

 

For ol skool carburated motors I would probably go with the l18 I have already on the stand. (Though I know an A-series would be a better fit.)

 

And if the master cylinders get in the way I could look into ones that mount inside the cab. Also the steering box is way up in front of the straight axle by the radiator, so it is out of the way of manifolds. But I might have to go with a improved universal joint column if I have routing issues. Also no torsion bars or strut towers to worry about.:D

 

Here is a shot of the 59 engine bay with basic measurements.

Edited November 30, 2009 by fisch

[INDY510]

First: Motor swaps are a huge headache,, especially if it is fuel injected....

 

Second: that engine bay is super small......my 510 is 26" between the frame rails.

 

Here are some pics of my "mock up" CA16DE from a FWD '86 Pulsar

Supposedly it has a very similar block to the RWD CA18DE

The crank-shaft is sitting on the concrete: 19.5"......add ~4 inches for stock front sump oil pan

 

So it is about 17.5" from stock exaust manifold to end of the oil filter....

And for reference my L18 is 18.5" wide from air horns to edge of starter motor...

 

 

The L18 is 24" from the top of the crossmember to the top of the valve cover....

It is a few inches more from the bottom of the rear sump pan to the top of valve cover.

 

Fisch: you da man yo........... but don't get in over your head with a modern motor swap that maybe will fit....... it will be countless hours of fabrication.....

 

Not to mention how hard it is to find parts for a RWD JDM CA18DE

Why not consider a miata motor??? they are rear sump,,,, and parts would be way easier to find....

[fisch]

Thank you INDY! (And I appreciate the words of caution. Really! I would think pretty hard before I took the plunge. We are still dreaming and researching. And I know you guys have my back if I get into trouble. At least verbably, since you are not physically near me.)

 

Amazingly the CA16DE is just about the same size as the c-engine in the '59! Within and inch length and width. Still have to check height on the 59 but I have some room above the stock engine.

 

Dude you are awesome.

 

I just had a thought. I bet the weight of the VG would make handling a mess in the 59. 300pounds for a VG30e.

 

Miata is a thought for sure, but you know I want to keep it Nissan if I can!!

[qwik510]

Got my VG car home yesterday so I just went out and took some measurements for you.

 

These are approx. but should be pretty close.

 

The VG33 I have is from a 99 Pathfinder. The VG30 measurements should be the same.

 

Front to back (from the face of the crank pulley to the rear most part of the valve cover 23"

 

Side to side from exhaust manifold to exhaust manifold 22"

 

Top to bottom (from the top of the flat part of the cross member that runs under the oilpan to the top of the 200SX VG30 intake 23"

 

I think you will have issues with those narrow frame rails in regards to the starter motor. In stock configuration the alternator will be an issue too but it is easily relocated.

 

Let us know what you decide.

 

My vote is for a 13b rotary. It should fit a lot easier. Came in a turbo model too:D

[DRIVEN]

You were right that an A-series would be the easiest fit - but you probably wouldn't gain much power. They are tough and parts are cheap though.

Rotary would be a pretty easy fit too. Prepare to get flamed by the "purist". Personally, I get a stiffy anytime the subject of the CA comes up. I want one really bad and aside from initial outlay, the only thing that makes me hesitate is the scarcity of parts. If you aren't planning to use it as a daily driver that may not be much of a concern.

[b210in]

go for the ca18det, i'm slightly biased though

[fisch]

Thanks qwik! Wow the VG would be tight and I would bet would require a new steering column solution. The biggest surprise is I wouldn't have guessed the V6 would be about the same length from the firewall as the 4 cyl L engine. (Which is about 24" from the back of the block to the fan.) Yeah I don't think it is a good idea the more I think about it. Thank you so much for helping me undersatnd that with some measurements!

 

Driven, yeah I like the idea of a CA more and more. The size plus power gain of the single cam ca18e makes it sound pretty good. And it sounds like it will fit even better than an l-series would. I'd almost say it couldn't be more rare than the c-engine in the 59, but so many british parts would fit the 59 engine it probably is easier to get parts.

 

I won't drive it too much, but would love to hit the local shows with it up and down the east coast. And I have a dream of driving it to the west coast to hang with my peeps, but I better have a spare engine in the trunk!!

[fisch]

go for the ca18det, i'm slightly biased though

 

Yes you have polluted my mind b210in. I went through your thread post by post today. The big hang up I have is what to do about the intercooler? And I'd need to ponder the cold air intake. I don't have an extra headlight like you do! And I really don't want to cut. Hey any chance you would grab some measurements for me?? Width with stuff on would be especially interesting.

 

I think I read somewhere about the Ca18et wiring being harder than the ca18det? Because of the way its harness is. But I need to dig that up again.

[qwik510]

CA would be cool.

 

Several on eBay

 

This one is nice and complete. Only $1300 including shipping too.

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Nissan-240SX-JDM-CA18DET-DOHC-Turbo-Engine-CA18-DET_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem35a52f477cQQitemZ230404605820QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_7568wt_940

 

This one is more of a parts engine.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-Nissan-Ca18det-Ca18-Ca18de-Engine-Motor-Parts-Low-C_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3ca7c23683QQitemZ260512560771QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_3253wt_1165

[fisch]

HA I just stumbled on those too!

 

I am curious why I keep hearing parts are hard to get for a CA? I just searched ebay and rockauto for both the et and det, and there is more stuff out there than for my l18. At least it seems that way? Granted L stuff seeems to be a bit cheaper!

 

Is there some part made out of unobtanium that I am missing?

[b210in]

HA I just stumbled on those too!

 

I am curious why I keep hearing parts are hard to get for a CA? I just searched ebay and rockauto for both the et and det, and there is more stuff out there than for my l18. At least it seems that way? Granted L stuff seeems to be a bit cheaper!

 

Is there some part made out of unobtanium that I am missing?

 

first of all, the hard to find parts rumor is a myth. also, don't sweat the intercooler. you could always run no intercooler and use meth injection or chemical intercooler. or just go smaller intercooler or place it some where else. from looking at your diaghram, i see several places to mount an intercooler.

 

here's the best advice. if you plan on getting a ca18det, wait for a low mileage engine. you will pay a little more, but it will be worth it in the end. these engines are very old to begin with. if you plan on rebuilding it before you install it then it really doesn't matter.

[b210in]

Yes you have polluted my mind b210in. I went through your thread post by post today. The big hang up I have is what to do about the intercooler? And I'd need to ponder the cold air intake. I don't have an extra headlight like you do! And I really don't want to cut. Hey any chance you would grab some measurements for me?? Width with stuff on would be especially interesting.

 

I think I read somewhere about the Ca18et wiring being harder than the ca18det? Because of the way its harness is. But I need to dig that up again.

 

i think the engine, intercooler, and ram air will be easy. granted it wont be in a head light, but do able never the less.

 

i think the biggest headache for you will be the tranny tunnel. from the pics of the interrior, and just guessing, i think the tranny might be too tall. you are going to have to cut. i will take some measurements this weekend, specially the tranny.

[fisch]

i think the biggest headache for you will be the tranny tunnel. from the pics of the interrior, and just guessing, i think the tranny might be too tall. you are going to have to cut. i will take some measurements this weekend, specially the tranny.

 

 

Dude you rule! My hope with the trans tunnel is that I can fab one up or modify a 320 one so I can save mine. Check this out, the cool thing is that the tunnel is a modular bolt on affair in these, like a 320. It is made up of 2 pieces the lower cover and an upper, little plate that goes all the way up to the heater. So I hope not to cut, but just replace. It is almost as if they expected you to put a bigger engine in it!:D

Edited November 30, 2009 by fisch

[Icehouse]

I didn't read everything (hopefully on my lunch break I can) but I think a janky carbed turbo setup on the stock motor would be cool! Who cares how fast it is or even how reliable, how often are you going to go on a road trip. Fab up some crazy looking turbo setup, it will sound wicked and turn some heads. Just my opinion, especially after turboing Dave's L motor. It's an awesome car to drive very entertaining and seeing the look on people's face when they look under the hood is awesome!

[fisch]

I didn't read everything (hopefully on my lunch break I can) but I think a janky carbed turbo setup on the stock motor would be cool! Who cares how fast it is or even how reliable, how often are you going to go on a road trip. Fab up some crazy looking turbo setup, it will sound wicked and turn some heads. Just my opinion, especially after turboing Dave's L motor. It's an awesome car to drive very entertaining and seeing the look on people's face when they look under the hood is awesome!

 

That'd be a trip Jeff! Heh if anyone, I thought you'd be psyched about a CAturbo swap!

 

I actually would like to drive the bejesus out of it in the nice weather months though. My summer daily.

 

I wonder if hopped up british stuff would fit on this engine. Might already be a turbo set up out there for it.

 

If you lived down the street from me you know we'd have to try it. How about I send you the head and you work it out for me!:lol:

[Icehouse]

That'd be a trip Jeff! Heh if anyone, I thought you'd be psyched about a CAturbo swap!

 

I actually would like to drive the bejesus out of it in the nice weather months though. My summer daily.

 

I wonder if hopped up british stuff would fit on this engine. Might already be a turbo set up out there for it.

 

If you lived down the street from me you know we'd have to try it. How about I send you the head and you work it out for me!:lol:

 

I think the CA is a cool engine, I just think it would be cooler to see the stock engine with a turbo on it myself. Later datsun's look better with engine swaps than some of the earlier ones. But you could always use the US ca18et tranny it's much smaller and just as tough, its the "C" tranny just with the old style shifter design. It's also the same length as a ZX trans.

 

Fuck the intercooler, it's not like your going to be racing it. The engine will be fine without it. I've seen SR's without them. We didn't have one in Dave's car at first and even after installing it there was no noticeable power difference just a lower carb box temp. Maybe on the track it would be noticeable but not in standard daily driving stuff.

[fisch]

You have a good point Jeff. Check this out. THis is an Austin bug eye sprite, which has a similar engine to the '59. This dude put a period correct Judson Supercharger on it. Now this is pretty interesting and requires more research!

 

[MAG58]

You have a good point Jeff. Check this out. THis is an Austin bug eye sprite, which has a similar engine to the '59. This dude put a period correct Judson Supercharger on it. Now this is pretty interesting and requires more research!

 

Oh god. Some poor bastard still thinks they're performance motors... :lol:

 

Probably with those old cars is the first thing they did when they put a performance motor in was put a datto trans in. The british ones were Shit.

 

Though your engine might benefit from the current rage in A-series power which is bolting on the K1200 head out of a BMW Motorcycle. These little 1.4L Buzz bombs have bad 175hp and 8500 rpm. Not bad imo.

 

Though the 1.6L Mazda BP miata motor or the 4AGE 20v would make a screamer of a 1000...

 

[fisch]

Though your engine might benefit from the current rage in A-series power which is bolting on the K1200 head out of a BMW Motorcycle. These little 1.4L Buzz bombs have bad 175hp and 8500 rpm. Not bad imo.

 

Oh man mag. That is giving me some wood right there!:D I need to learn more about that! Google here I come! (I am sure it will be rocket science to me!)

 

Hey do you know how close A-series and B-series BMC's are? Bolt spacing for manifolds, heads, etc?

 

This little engine only has like 37 HP. I imagine it would take a lot of cash just to get it to the level of a stock L-18.:rolleyes:

Edited November 30, 2009 by fisch

[b210in]

ahh, you are in the coolest part of the engine swap phase. choosing the right engine.

 

i also like the 4age 20v. this is like the toyota's answer the honda b-series engine.

[MAG58]

Are you sure it's based on the B series? IMO BLMC in all its absurd glory never made a B series smaller than 1.4L, the sprite motors were some bastardization of an A series (I guess you could say the Mini motor was a bastardization of the sprite motor, it came first) and those could be had in any flabor of 848cc to 1275cc's, though 1380 is common and the largest I've heard of was something like 1500 and change. That said the B series is the same in every way, it's just a bigger motor (I.e. take the demensions and add some) and the B series can take an 80mm and a bit bore while I think 73.5-74mm is about max for an A series.

[fisch]

From what info I could gather it is indeed a 'destroked' b-series. (thus the lower cc's)

 

Here is what I got off of datsun1200.com

 

"For developing the 1000cc engine (C1) for the 1957 Datsun 110 -- under the advice of American engineers, Donald Stone was enrolled at Nissan. He was formerly at Willys-Overland. The C1 was derived from the production Austin A50 Cambridge license. He destroked the BMC B series 1500 engine, and the resulting C1 engine was called the "Stone engine". When it was later increased to 1.2 liters for the first Bluebird (Datsun 310) it was named the E1. "

 

"Stone Engine" Pretty neat huh!

 

I am very glad to hear the bolt spacings should line up between B-series and A-series!

 

I've been trying to dig up info on this BMW head on a A-series stuff. Fascinating! But sooooo much money to get where a CA18et is stock. The cool thing of course is that you could retain the original block that came with the car. So in that sense I like it more than a Miata swap.

 

This buggy is so rare I really want to keep it Nissan if at all posible. However a half nissan hybrid would be acceptable too!

[b210in]

no, it not based on the b series honda engine. what i meant was that toyota had no v tech engine to compete with the honda b-series engine so they took a 4age and added variable valve timing to it, and presto you have the 4age 20v silver top.

[MAG58]

no, it not based on the b series honda engine. what i meant was that toyota had no v tech engine to compete with the honda b-series engine so they took a 4age and added variable valve timing to it, and presto you have the 4age 20v silver top.

 

We're talking about the B-series engine from british Leyland Motor Corporation (BLMC) which was all iron, pushrod, and all that jazz.

 

And Fisch, they made a factory twin cam head for the B-series. It came in a car called the MGA twin cam. It made rounbouts 108hp at 8.3:1 SCR. I'm sure with a bit higher compression ratio you could have a screamer of a little motor.

[fisch]

I need to change the name of this thread to '59 dream engines.

 

So check this madness out, I found a ride along video of a BMW K1200 head on a A-series mini. WOW!!! that sound!! Has anyone done this to a Datsun A-series yet!?!

 

 

Great now I gotta hunt for a MGAtwincam! Mag you are bad for me getting any work done, but are so AWESOME!!!!!!

 

So you know these engines. I need to send it to you so you can make me a little screamer!!!