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410/411 disc brake mod


mklotz70

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Okay all you 410/411 owners....I hope you haven't given up yet. This just pulled into my shop today. .....no, it's not mine :)

 

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I'm picking the project back up. Hopefully, this will go pretty quickly...I've still got a ton of other projects getting pushed aside for this.

 

The downfall of the last set was not having a rig to fit them to. After preliminary checks today, everything is really close.....so I basically had to have a rig.....but it looks like it will work.

 

Anyone out there have a spare set of 410/411 front drum hubs. The owner of this rig is going to need a set. I have his originals and one of them has a really bad spun bearing. I'll be looking for a couple of extra sets as cores if this all works out. I'll be able to send turned ones with the kit(core chrg req'd) and the ones on the rig can get sent back to turn for the next guy. Or....if you're in no hurry, you can send the hubs or have them machined locally and save the shipping. Anyway.......stay tuned :)

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Not much for anyone to do at this point. I basically need to start over building the brackets from scratch, do the artwork, double check it, get them cut.....yada, yada, yada.....just lot's of time under the fender.

 

You have good extra hubs, or good ones on your 411?

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Got it up in the air to take a closer look. First off, we had a bit of trouble getting the outer bearing off yesterday....so today, I got the emery cloth out and fixed that. Here's a trick if you have a similar prob..... I used a Sharpie to mark the spindle....pushed the bearing on/off.....found where it scraped the ink off....hit that area a bit with a flat file and some more emery....I can now get the bearing on/off fairly easily.

 

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I pulled the hub/rotor back off and put them in the bench vise. I used clamps(in the way) then magnets(good clearance) to hold the spindle in one place for reference. I then positioned the bracket with the pads on the rotor where they need to be. Clearances are really tight. In fact, I'll need to buy some allen head bolts to replace the M12 bolts in the pic. There's no room for a socket to get in there. I think it will work with the allens, but if not, I'll go get the bigger Maxima/altima rotor and that should push everything out a bit for more clearance. I'm trying to avoid that so that the setup will work behind 14" rims.

 

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nice this will now eliminate having to shorten the steering arms nice i like how you tucked it..........

 

to bad we couldnt and didnt know you need a whole car for this to work right the first time lol

 

with the brake mounted just above the steering arm does it clear the big ass coil bucket or is the line still in the way??

Edited by freaky510
learning to read :)
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So I picked up the Allen bolts to try....seems like they will work. I'll probably end up using a loctite product to guarantee the hold on these since there's no room for lock washers. The bigger rotors would make this easier! :)

 

Anyway.....I started with a cut out from the last set of brackets. I wanted to work with that art and modify it because there were certain elements in the drawing that would be easier to add to than to redraw entirely. Basically, it's similar to what I've shown before. I'm sure there's a way to measure all this and draw it in CAD without all the cut/paste trial and error, but I'm a hack....oh well! :)

 

I've got preliminary art done now. I'll check it tomorrow....if I still like it, I'll probably cut some plate and go from there. this one will not be easy...they never are!

 

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The tabs are left over art...they will definitely end up longer, but I won't know how long to make them for sure until I get a plate done for mock up. I should probably see about drawing the caliper bracket in CAD...then I can lock that group together, place it in relation to my bracket and draw the bracket around it.....sounds obvious now! :(

 

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In the on going saga.............

 

...glue the art to tag board, cut it out, bolt it to the spindle and see how it fits. It all looked good!

 

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Since I liked the art, I printed two more and glued them to a piece of 3/8" plate. I got really lucky.....they fit this piece perfectly! :) I center punched all the holes. Drilled the mounting holes to size, then drilled the others for whatever radius was close. If my pilot hole was too close, the drill bit was a bit smaller.....I think that only happened on one of them. I'm making these way too pretty for a prototype! :) My friend Dave came over and started asking questions.....one of which made me realize that I didn't need the clearance for the 4th bolt any more. It was put in on the first set because they were designed to go on the front side. Since these are on the back.....there's no bolt there to worry about. In stock form, the 4th bolt would be holding the backing plate.

 

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I cut them apart to make them a bit easier to handle. I wanted to bore the large holes first, but with the way I was clamping it, it wouldn't matter if I cut the outside first or not. I cut the first side with the paper about 3/4's of the way through....then flipped the plate over and made the final part of the cut from the back side....makes the exit cleaner.

I burned up the first bi-metal hole saw....had to chase down another...wrong size, so I had to actually bore the final diameter of the second large hole. The hole saw died about 1/16" from completing the hole.....which ended up wasting 1.5hrs and $20 of trying to get another saw. Anyway.......

 

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I finished cutting the outside with the 7x12 bandsaw....took better part of a half hour. I then used the belt/disc sander to clean up the outside edges. To clean up the inside, I used a carbide burr in a die grinder. Cleaned up the faces and hit the perimeter with the wire wheel. Certainly close enough for a prototype!!!

 

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The 3 close tolerance mounting holes lined right up, everything looked great....now to figure out the thickness of the spacers.

 

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I first tried some left over spacers from the last version. They're too thick which made the tab hit the spindle...you can see it just to the left of the allen bolt in the pic. It also placed the pad holding bracket a bit off center.

 

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So...I turned down some thinner spacers and it looks just fine now. Next up....making the tabs the right length, then checking it on the car.

 

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Edited by mklotz70
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Considering that no one is looking at this thread....20 views since yesterday....I think I skip some of the remaining how-to and just go with some reference pics.

 

Got the last two spacers made this morning....tabs made this evening. Tacked them into place....mounted it up to see about clearance. Looks good so far, but I'll need to pull the shock and spring to check it through out it's range of motion. The steering stops aren't in place, nor was the steering linkage.....so there will probably be a ton of room once they are connected and factored in......since they cleared now already :) Maybe once I sell some of these, I can afford another camera....without flash...these suck :(

 

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Things were close, but the clearance to the lower caliper bolt and the tierod nut was beyond close. Unacceptable. I took this pic yesterday and have been racking my brain for a fix. I didn't really feel like posting since it brought everything to a grinding halt.

 

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It dawned on me this morning while taking a shower. I was thinking of something completely different, but as soon as I closed my eyes to wash my hair....bam....nice vivid image of what would most likely fix the prob. Basically, space the hub out 1/8". I got downstairs as soon as I could and used the last 15min before leaving for work to mock it up. Looked promising when I left. Right after I got home, I got on the lathe and turned some .125" spacers and Doug(the 410's owner) came over and he mounted them up. YeeHaw!!!!! I've got clearance now!!!! There will be a few more details as this progresses, but it went from being a nearly dead deal to nearly a done deal with the addition of an 1/8" of metal. Here's a shot of the clearance after Doug put it together. I'll have to use a thinner cotter pin, but the hole is still accessible through the castle nut.

 

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I won't go through all the options I was looking at, but one or two were simply not available....period......the others I just didn't like the compromise required.

 

 

 

I mocked it up on the bench. I cut the tierod off some linkage laying out side(gotta love Ryobi 18V 4.5" grinder with a cutoff wheel)....510 stuff....same exact taper. Everything still looked good. I cut the spot welds and got rid of the spacers under the tabs. I clamped it all together....looked good.

 

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It will still be easy enough to change the pads....just take out the top bolt and swing the caliper out of the way without having to drop the tierod.

 

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It then dawned on me that I had more clearance between the plate and the spindle now.....so, I can move the tabs some and make this smaller/lighter/stronger. These pics will give an idea of how it will look.

 

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Considering that no one is looking at this thread....20 views since yesterday....I think I skip some of the remaining how-to and just go with some reference pics.

 

Mike I feel slightly ripped off!! Just because we didn't have time to read it yesterday (to may pics to load on my phone in a timely manner) so our view was counted today.

 

gotta love Ryobi 18V 4.5" grinder with a cutoff wheel

 

You should try one of these, by far the best angle grinder ever! They use them at work, after working in the weld shop a few times I had to have my own :D

 

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I just had to post that because I know how much you love tools :D

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too many pics for sure! Takes awhile to load up, even on the computer with cable :) My hope is that other guys will take some of this and go make some better brakes for some of the other old imports out there :) ....you know...like a '59 1000 4dr! :)

 

I can barely make out the name....metabo? I've never heard of, or seen any tool with that name before. I'll have to check into it. I know a couple of guys with the Ryobi 18v angle grinders.....all have the same complaint....not enough run time. But, it was perfect for what I needed if for yesterday! :)

 

Doug and I worked it out yesterday....I'm going to be doing the entire install on this rig....so the m/c and lines are coming up once the brake mounts are finished.

Edited by mklotz70
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If you ever consider thinking of going into "production" you might want to consider getting a plazma cutter instead of wearing out all those hole saw blades. Don't know how many units it would take to amortize the plazma cutter but it may be worth considering. Keep up the good work, this is a truly inspiring thread!

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Thanks guys. I actually have a plasma cutter that is rated at 1.2"....but it's dead right now. By the time you do all the clean up on the cuts, it's a push with using the band saw. These will get a limited production run and I will have them cut with a water jet :)

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Hell yeah Mike! I've said it before, you could make a book!

 

And I like this talk of making some for a '59 1000. I will need some of those someday! (Talk about a small market!)

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Looks good Mike, I thought I was the only one that pictures things in the shower. Shit, sometimes I stand and stare at the wall for a while and I'm really picturing designs in my head.....15 minutes in the morning is sometimes all you need, I work on a lot of projects before work in the morning, the only time I have enough liquid motivation!:D

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Ya....it's the biggest drawback of working on dayshift. On graveyard, I'd come home, everyone was gone and I could work for as long as I could stay awake. When I worked evenings....I'd get home around midnight, fall asleep quickly, up by 7-8.....again, no one home...I'd have all morning to work on my stuff while I was awake and had some energy. I'd get the best part of my day. Then I'd race off to work...if I was dead tired...big deal....don't need much brain power to do my job on that shift. On dayshift....I get home and can't hardly keep my eyes open...end up taking a nap a lot of days. By the time I wake up, dinners ready...but the time that's over....it's usually so late in the evening I figure, why bother at this point so I do nothing. Oh well. Maybe if I exercised and lost some weight, I'd have more energy in the afternoons. I think I'll nap on that for a bit :)

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This is almost getting exciting! :)

 

So I checked the placement of the hub with the 1/8" spacer and decided that it just wouldn't work with the seal. So...I turned some new spindle spacers that are 1/8" longer than the stock ones.

 

I removed the stock one with a small, sharp chisel and a hammer. After you get some space under it, you can use pry bars to get it the rest of the way off.

 

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I got the OD and ID's turned and finished the OD to a nice sheen for the seal mating surface. I've showed this before, but here goes again... I needed to find out the angle of the inside taper. It wasn't quite 40 or 45 deg, so I set the lathe to cut it at 42.5deg. Tomorrow...I should be able to get the bracket finalized....maybe even go get the hoses taken care of. :)

 

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i love your threads, so informative and you dont mess around getting a job done and documented....you should be getting paid to do these...but like most of us, it ends up being a hobby....keep up the good work!!!

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Hey! Great to see you here! Haven't heard from you in a few. Thanks. Glad you like it. Expect some artwork in the next week or so :)

 

I'm planning on doing 6 sets after this one...we'll see how the money goes at that point.

 

Hobby....hhmm.....hobby would be working on something I actually own! :)

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Boy...the hardbody calipers sure are a close match! The mounting on the bracket is the same at 4". They're deeper, which is counter productive, but they do have a bigger bore...which would be an upgrade from these. Not sure if I'm curious enough to see if they fit. The rotors between the G20 and the HB are the same dia/thickness. Somebody else can figure that out :) The HB caliper is on the right.

 

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I ordered rebuild kits for the calipers....about $5ea. Figured why not. I'm going to be testing this rig with these brakes before he gets new parts, so as long as I'm cleaning them up...might as well put some seals in.

 

Basically, you just use a scribe or small screwdriver to take the dust cover off. Then, you can blow air in the brake line and the piston will pop out with force. Don't stick your fingers in front of the piston when you blow the air....it will hurt! I pulled my finger out of the way as the last second....glad I did considering the force it came out with!!! After they were separated, I cleaned everything up in the parts cleaner.

 

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This is way overkill for mock up parts!!! When you blast/glass bead the parts......DO NOT BLAST THE OUTER SURFACE OF THE PISTON!!!!!!! That surface has to slide inside the seal. It's okay(provided is really fine abrasive) to blast inside the bore of the caliper body, but don't get carried away around the seal area....don't want to make it too porous for the seal to seal. At this point you can powder coat or paint. I may just paint since I don't feel like pulling the car out just to have room to powder coat parts that are basically just for mock up!! :)

 

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Almost forgot....the bracket with the excess cut off. I could mod the final design more, but I'm thinking I'll just leave it like this. I could have some lightening holes cut in them?! :)

 

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Here's the rebuild kit :)

 

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My main goal for the day was to get the hose figured out and/or taken care of. The G20 hose just doesn't lend itself to the mod. It doesn't use double flared fittings either....didn't want to add a weird one to the mix. The hose that Doug had on there was a custom one that had the metric end for the caliper and the SAE end for the hardline. I checked on the price of a custom set with the banjo end I needed......$55/pr. Which is on par with a parts store set. BUT!!! When they wear out or get damaged, you wouldn't be able to simply go to the parts store and get another. I decided to look at the HB hoses....thinking they looked like they'd point the hose into the right area. Bingo!!!! They fit the back of the caliper perfectly and they point it exactly where I wanted it. Kinda hard to see in the pic, but the hose is is right in the middle of the space on a full lock turn. It's about 2" from the frame and 2" from the tire.

 

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Was trying to upload a vid but it keeps coming out upside down :( Probably try again in the morning.

 

Another shot of the brackets

 

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Now that I've spent all the time cleaning the brackets.....I realize that I have two rights.....so I get to go to the s/y in the morning.

 

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