410/411 disc brake mod

[mklotz70]

Made a bit more progress. Got the CAD work really close, so I printed it, traced it to the cardboard, cut it out, mounted it....found I need to clearance a bolt head.....but otherwise, I think it's a go. Adding the bolt clearance will only take a minute.

 

I got the second hub turned too. It's got a spun bearing race. In the pics of the race, you can see how far it moves back and forth!!

 

Gotta sleep so I can get some more done tomorrow :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[freaky510]

ooohhh man do i get dibs on the frist set ????

[mklotz70]

ooohhh man do i get dibs on the frist set ????

 

I'm guessing that a YES since it's your fault I'm even making these infernal things!!! :)

[freaky510]

I'm guessing that a YES since it's your fault I'm even making these infernal things!!! :)

 

thank you so much.......words cant say enough what this means to me

[mklotz70]

Still progressing......just slower than I'd like.

 

Got the other hub cut. It was a lot more grief because of the spun bearing. It's good for testing purposes.

 

 

 

 

 

I redid the artwork a bit to clear the bolt head and socket. I may see about an allen head bolt in that spot to regain some meat on the plate. Cut the print out and traced it onto the 3/8" steel plate. This cut is by hand with a 7" cutoff wheel in a hand held grinder. I was pretty pleased with it :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was supposed to do all the holes first, but got ahead of myself. So...I went back to the CAD, had it draw center points in each of the holes, cut that pattern out and laid it over the cut out bracket. Used a spring loaded punch to mark the holes on the cross hairs, then center punched them. Drilled them on the drill press with a 3/8" drill...very close tolerance on a 3/8" bolt! But...all three bolts went in with out a wrench or filing the holes.

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2009 by mklotz70

[thisismatt]

 

So the steering knuckles are the reason you don't mount it to the back? Hard to tell from the pictures, but do the knuckles bend towards the car center? If so, could you mount the caliper brackets to the back and swap the knuckles side to side (so they bend outward and make up for the caliper bracket inbetween)?

[mklotz70]

If the bottom right hole in this pic had a machined surface on it like the other two, I could go to the back side, but it doesn't....so I won't :)

 

 

 

 

.....as for swapping the steering arm from left to right.......sorry...but that's an absolute no-no. It would completely screw up the ackerman and how the vehicle's front wheels relate to each other in a turn. The Ackerman is what makes the inside wheel turn more than the outside one in a turn.

 

 

Datsun guys are broke/cheap. Laser cutting the bracket is much cheaper than having a piece machined to work on the backside. I suppose I could machine the arms too, which would also add to the price. I'd love to just have a part machined so I wouldn't have to do anything to it except put it in a box and ship it. I enjoy working on the prototypes, but I'm not fond of production work at all. That's why the truck kits are sitting idle :) Considering how I'm doing all this at the sacrifice of "My" projects that I need to be doing.......I'm just not going to worry about exploring "all" the options available for 411 brakes. This will work. You are certainly more than welcome to come up with something different :) I've already spent hours finding the rotor. You can go with the bigger setup off the maxima/altima's and give them another option :)

[]2eDeYe]

Mike you should cut yourself an offset pattern of the bracket to use with your plasma. The cuts will go way faster and will still be clean. Plus you'll be able to cut a bunch of brackets in one sitting and they will all be the same. You could even drill pilot holes in the pattern for your center punch to speed up the process.

 

Of course, laser cutting the brackets will work to...how much is a run of a bunch of plates?

[mklotz70]

Actually, that was the plan. My plasma cutter is not designed to drag cut.....pretty much all the drag cut machines are 40A or less. I spent a good bit of my time trying to make a piece to hold the tip 1/8" off the plate....anyway....it's not that simple....needs more design work....got tired of not getting the plates done. You'd be surprised at how fast the 7" cut-off wheel goes through 3/8" plate. :) No clean up on the cut either..

[mklotz70]

Gotta get some sleep, but I thought Freaky would like to see the bracket :)

 

Haven't had time to put anything up the last day or two, but I have been busy.

 

Got the plates cleaned up a bit with the strip-all disc. I would have like to have taken more pics of the machining process, just kept forgetting since I was trying to push through it. Cleaned up the spindles too and made the new tabs and spacers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's thinner through here than I'd hoped. Partly from the plasma cutter, but mainly because of having to clear the socket diameter that would fit the stock bolt. Here you can see that if this is switched out to an allen.....a lot more meat can be added back to this area.

 

 

 

 

Got everything clamped up and tacked. Still need to clamp and tack the other side. I'll do the final welding on the bracket and then I'll machine the tabs a bit to eliminate any warpage from the welding. The hole clearances are pretty tight......If I don't open them up a bit, the powdercoat will get sacrificed when the bolts go in. I like close tolerances :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[freaky510]

:eek:ooohhh hell yea this is better than any porn site:lol:

those look sweet thank you so much.Now i just need to hook up with you.:lol:

 

i will be back in the area tomarrow afternoon/evening i got a long drive from Bosie give me a call if you have time maybe i could swing bye on my way home.

 

 

thank you times a million mike you are a true Datsun nut :lol:

[mklotz70]

didn't get as far as I wanted, but here's some more pics.

 

I've tried to do a ton of pics so that some of these up and coming guys can get an idea of the process.......at least the process I've used. Not saying it's the best, but it works for me :) Anyway.....maybe somebody can use this info and ideas and create better brakes for something else :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mklotz70]

While Crabbyone was dismantling the R16...I spend some time welding/grinding the brackets. I didn't quite get time done today....still going to PC them. Freaky came down with his hubs and I did get those done........they came out really close! I'm not sure you can even feel any play in them. These aren't as pretty as the truck ones.....I was in a hurry and sine they're a prototype, I wasn't concerned with them looking perfect....just proving that they work :)

 

Anyway....couple of pics, then some sleep :)

 

 

 

 

If you notice the "ridge" on the tabs on the lower bracket in the pic....that's from machining out any warping from welding. The long ear was tweaked about .007"

 

 

Edited March 25, 2009 by mklotz70

[Creepy Cruiser]

For home build, they're great!

 

Just prooving once again, anything can be made to work if you want to spend the time to make it happen.

 

Nice job!

[Icehouse]

Great work Mike!!!

[mklotz70]

Thanks for the suggestion about the non-captured rotors!!! Much easier this way!!

 

Freaky....they're ready to pick up :)

 

[ppeters914]

First off, this is amazing work. Worth a beer or soda (your choice) from me at Canby.

 

Thanks for the suggestion about the non-captured rotors!!! Much easier this way!!

 

Freaky....they're ready to pick up :)

 

Brian, please-please-please weigh the brackets, rotor and caliper. Probably doesn't matter, but I'd like to know.

 

Next, there's a little more to consider. For starters, the brake master cylinder. The stock m/c for the all-drum PL411 is a 7/8-inch single-reservoir going to 15/16-inch wheel cylinders (4 in the front, 2 in the rear). The front disc RL411 has a .7 single-reservoir m/c with 11/16-inch rear wheel cylinders. The G20 donor and suggested substitute 280Z both use double-reservoir 15/16-inch master cylinders:

 

G20

 

 

 

 

280Z

 

 

 

I'm just wondering if these will work for those running dual SU's?

Edited March 26, 2009 by ppeters914

[mklotz70]

I tried Paula's postal scale....even the individual pieces were over it's limit.

 

I'm sure you'd want the '79 280zx m/c.....disc/drum.....because the mounting ears are close to the originals. You'll have to open the hole on the firewall a bit and file the holes on the m/c and make a new pushrod. Don't know about clearance.

[ppeters914]

I'm sure you'd want the '79 280zx m/c.....disc/drum.....because the mounting ears are close to the originals. You'll have to open the hole on the firewall a bit and file the holes on the m/c and make a new pushrod. Don't know about clearance.

 

The 280ZX is similiar to the 280Z. Anyone have the dimensions? Hmmmm, maybe I'll just stop at FLAPS and check.

 

The other gotcha is the connections are metric (M10) whereas the stock 411 is SAE. Gonna need an adapter, change out the end fitting, or bend a new line.

[bonvo]

beautiful work mike i need a lathe :D

[mklotz70]

Pete...it's not that hard to simply reflare a new nut to the end of the stock hard line.

 

 

Bonvo....thanks. The lathe is a lot of fun!! I was really pleased with just how close his hubs fit in the rotor! They don't need a lot of meat cut off, but by the time you press the lug bolts in and out and take a ton of light passes on the hubs.....they take longer than I was expecting. The castings on the hubs are out of round quite a bit, so it's the interupted cuts on the lathe that cause the grief. If they were better castings, it would go a lot faster.

[freaky510]

Once again I must say thank you Mike you are amazing

 

I will be installing the front disc brakes this afternoon when i get home from work I will take lots of pics for all of you.

 

as for the brakeline I am going to have some made that fits both ends as they are, no need to change any fittings (buddy works at a shop that makes hp lines) just bolt and go. also they will need to be a little longer for the up and down action.

[ppeters914]

Pete...it's not that hard to simply reflare a new nut to the end of the stock hard line.

 

Oh, I know that. I'm just bringing it up so folks are aware. We see a number of people on the roadster side who just attach the SAE fitting to the metric master cylinder because it appears to fit......but it really doesn't, and will fail later.

 

In case anyone wonders, I -REALLY-REALLY-REALLY want this to work. I am -NOT- trying to be Mister Negative Waves, but these are your brakes. Screw this up and somebody can get killed. And when so many people keep asking the same questions on simple stuff over 'n' over again, well....

 

Once again I must say thank you Mike you are amazing

 

I will be installing the front disc brakes this afternoon when i get home from work I will take lots of pics for all of you.

 

as for the brakeline I am going to have some made that fits both ends as they are, no need to change any fittings (buddy works at a shop that makes hp lines) just bolt and go. also they will need to be a little longer for the up and down action.

 

Most excellent, dude. Look forward to your report and pics. Oh, and don't throw those drum brake parts away yet.

Edited March 27, 2009 by ppeters914

[]2eDeYe]

Nicely done Mike :D

[mklotz70]

Thanks guys.

 

I agree Pete....that's why my truck kit will have the high grade bolts and the loctite included in them.....because I don't trust that the guys installing them would do their "due dillegence" and actually go buy their own.....they'd half-*ss it and of course, when it fails, they'd look at me like I did something wrong.

 

As of now, Freaky is going to be producing the setup. I'm looking forward to seeing what he comes up with. If he decides he can't, I'll probably do them, but not until well after Canby.