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410/411 disc brake mod


mklotz70

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Okay.....there's no 411 section, but I figure some of this info will be good for somebody else's use. I'm more familiar with posting threads here.....so I'll put it here and refer the EarlyDatsun group to Ratsun.

 

 

 

Okay.....so I've been curious about putting discs on a 410/411 for awhile now. Doug V in our club was talking about doing the upgrade...I told him I'll like to see what he was working with to see if I could help. He ended up going with the SSS setup. He has given me his old drum stuff to play with....so I did some investigating today. Mind you, I don't have a 411....have no plans of ever getting one....I think the appeal is simply figuring out another disc setup :)

 

Freaky510 has been chopping at the bit to hear if it can be done or not. If not, he gets to try to find drum stuff. If it will work....he has to figure out how to get parts and funds :) Anyway.....I'm not done figuring it out, but I know I can get the hub/rotor onto the 411 spindle 2 different ways. I'll have to decide which way to go, then I can follow up with the caliper mounting.

 

With the explanation out of the way.....here's some pics of where I'm at so far.

 

Here's the 411 drum spindle next to a 300zx strut. I know that the 280zx/300zx hubs/bearings interchange(meaning the spindles are the same)....seals are a bit different....but the 300 was off the strut, so that's what I started with. You can see that the inner brg diameter is smaller on the 411, but the outer is bigger. The outer on the 411 spindle is exactly the same as the truck spindles....same bearing, too. The most exciting thing I found was that the spindles are the same length....at least where it matters....bearing mounting surface to bearing mounting surface. That's what I'd been wondering about the most. Had the 411 been much shorter....it would have pretty much ended right there.

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That's about as far as I got with the 300 hub...figured I'd better go get the 280 stuff and check it too. You can see that the seal dia is the same on the 411 and the 280, but the 300 is smaller. The 411 seal is a bit thicker than the 280, but I'm pretty they're still close enough. I still need to look up specs on these seals to make sure that they are, in fact, the same diameters.

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This is the 300 hub/rotor.....all the clearance between the back of the rotor and the spindle is why I wanted to go that route.

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Again...I'll have to check specs to see if there actually is a .003" difference. I'm not too worried if there is...I'll probably explain later. The 3rd pic is the 300 hub...you can see that if I had to open up the hole to fit the 411 seal in there, I couldn't do it...all the metal would be gone. Now you know why I was checking seal measurements...you probably thought the bearings were more important :)

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I was curious to see if my brackets were in the ball park. Since I have them laser cut with no mounting holes, they just might work. I think the 280 rotor and the 720 rotor that I use on the truck discs are pretty dang close to the same size. If so, then these brackets should work. If the 280 rotors are smaller, then the area where the caliper mounting bracket goes will have to be modified. One of the ears will have to be cut off for this to work....same way on the trucks too. I've been running Paula's with 3 bolts for 6yrs? My NL for nearly a year. There's a set in Denver that's probably got 4 yrs on them now. Anyway....if somebody has a big probably with cutting off an ear for some reason(....such as being able to return to stock???? Not sure why you'd downgrade back to drums!!)......or for strength concerns....they are more than welcome to come up with another option or use SSS stuff :) Not trying to be harsh....just want to be clear that is necessary for this mod.

The 4th pic is not very accurate...mainly just a reference for myself. There won't be quite that much room, but there will be room. :)

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Most of the 411 guys have heard that there's no way the 510 stuff will fit....here's why. It's pretty obvious just how much smaller the 510 stuff is. The outer brg for the 510 is positively tiny!! Non vented rotor....why even bother. Might as well go the SSS route if you really wanted the 510 option to work. 280 stuff is a lot easier to find!!

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So...we're down to basically two different paths to take here....both having their advantages.

In the first pic is the 411 inner, slid into the seal area on the 280 hub. I can open up the inner mounting area of the 280 hub for the stock 30206 411 bearing to fit. Perfect fit on the spindle that way too.

 

In the foreground of the pic, you can see that the outer 280 brg slides over the threads and is just a hair too small to fit the spindle. The fix would be to mount the spindle in the lathe and turn the brg surface down for the 280 brg to fit. Fairly easy and that's what I'd do if they were for me. The downside is that the spindles will have to come off the rig and get machined.

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In this pic, I've laid the 720 outer bearing race on the hub so you can get an idea of how much material would have to be removed for it to fit. Going this route would use the exact same adapter I'm having datrod make for the truck brakes. The downside....removing a bit more material from the hub than some people might be comfortable with. The upside....the spindles don't have to come off the rig. Both inner and outer areas would get machined, but it would all be on the hub.

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Another possible option might be to make an adapter for the inner brgs so that the stock 280 bearing can be used. It's kind of a push. This option means no machining of the hub on the inner...but to avoid machining the hub at all, the spindle would have to get turned.

 

If I were doing this to my rig, I would machine the inner brg area of the hub to use the stock 411 brg and then machine the spindle to use the stock 280 brg on the outer. I'm certainly leaning that way unless somebody points out something I'm missing.

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I was just woundering, have you checked on sourcing a bearing that doesn't have anything to do with oem sizing? I've done this before on some odd projects, and just had to do it the other day. We where on our way to pick up my 510 race car when we lost a bearing on the trailer, by the time we noticed it the outer was wasted, lol. (of cource we're in the middle of nowhere, lol). So we took off the other side to get a bearing #, but of course there wasn't any on that one either, lol. So we went to the local Napa store and the guy just mic'd it out and presto we where back on our way. now the only thing he had was just a slight bit tight on the spindle, but nothing a few seconds with some emory cloth didn't fix. I'd try just cruzing by a local bearing place and show them what you've got and they can usually find the right one with no mods at all. It's always worked for me in the past, lol.

 

Just an idea, lol.

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Great question! Glad to see you're thinking outside the box :)

 

Actually, I have thought of that, just haven't done it. There's a slim chance of finding one, but I will check. We have several big bearing suppliers here in Portland, but all the info is online anyway. I did a ton of research trying to find options for the truck brakes.

 

The big hurdle is that one is metric and one is sae.....there's a 98% chance that machine work to either the hub or spindle will be needed anyway. If that's the case, I might as well stick with bearings that can be bought at the auto parts suppliers.

 

I will check the options. Thanks.

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Great posting! Anyone who upgrades the engine in a 410 or 411 needs to seriously consider upgrading the front brakes to discs. Bigger engines can easily overwhelm front drum brakes. You are opening an innovative to do this with mostly available parts. Keep up the good work!

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Great question! Glad to see you're thinking outside the box :)

 

Actually, I have thought of that, just haven't done it. There's a slim chance of finding one, but I will check. We have several big bearing suppliers here in Portland, but all the info is online anyway. I did a ton of research trying to find options for the truck brakes.

 

The big hurdle is that one is metric and one is sae.....there's a 98% chance that machine work to either the hub or spindle will be needed anyway. If that's the case, I might as well stick with bearings that can be bought at the auto parts suppliers.

 

I will check the options. Thanks.

 

I feel ya, lol.

 

Maybe I've just always gotten lucky, but I've done it many times and never had to machine anything. (I've have had to change the race at the same time a few times if the taper was slightly different though). I've always had very limited sources for machining, so I've just had to figure it out other ways, lol.

 

Everything you do comes out killer, so I have no doubt this will too.:D (and I love the fact that you put it all out there in the open for everybody)

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Thanks guys. There's still a bit more to do before it's a viable option.

 

Creepy....I've never been able to get any kind of verification from the bearing suppliers that the angles in the races are the same. They tell me they're matched and that I should NOT swap the inner race/rollers into another outer. If it could be verified that the angles are common....that would open up the options immensely!!!! Especially if it were true between inch and metric. I could probably do my truck brakes differently.

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Looking good as per normal Mike!!! The only question I have is why not use the stock 410 hub and just slid the rotor on it? Kinda like newish Honda's? Is it just hard to find rotors with enough back spacing?

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Freaky....you need to start looking for some 280 stuff :) I looked at the 411 disc spindles at Rory's place today....they're the same from the backside. I've got one....maybe two more things to check into for options, then I can look at the caliper mounting.

 

Ice.....I suppose I could look at that, but I'm not a fan of that method. If there's a rotor that could be hub centric on the 411 hub, that would work great....but putting a rotor on the lugs doesn't hold the tolerance well enough. There's enough slop in the holes around the lugs to be noticeable while driving. Do you know of any 4 lug rotors that are designed to slip over like that and fit the datsun bolt pattern? I guess I figured if it was that easy, somebody else would have done it......but then again....Fineline put in the time and found the passport rotor for the 521's.

 

To work correctly, it has to be a hub centric rotor to center right. It really shouldn't be a captured rotor, used as a non-captured rotor. I might be able to find one to fit, but it's a long shot!!

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Hub centric? Meaning the hub will center the rotor? I see. Back in the day all my friends with Honda's wouldn't even bother installing the 2 extra screws for the rotors, I guess they just figured the lugs would hold the rotor on. :D It just seems like there has to be a rotor out there that would work. Even if you had to drill it to 4x4.5, hey actually some Honda's were 4 on 4.5 too :D

 

Check the S13 stuff, it's slide on and so is the z32 which has 2 different sized rotor choices.

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Creepy....yep...114.3mm

 

Ice....the screws hold the rotor centered until you can get the wheel on and tighten the lug nuts.

 

If the weather is really nice today....I migh just head to the yard with a hub and see. I know there's no z32's or S13's....and I may actually do something in my shop.

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....and the other reason is that it's extremely doubtful that they would fit behind the stock 14" rims. I think most 411 owners are going to want to run stock or old school 14's. 280zx stuff will fit nicely :)

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So you basically need the hub to center the rotor like it did the drum? I think 14's will fit on a S13... Well they did on the back of mine :D O and I forgot the z32 is 5 lug I was just thinking that they were 4 because I redrilled mine to 4 lug...

 

Sweet vid my the way :D Is 30 thousands enough to throw it out of balance enough to cause damage?

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I'm not sure if you'd feel any out of balance. Keep in mind, that's only .015" out on one side and .015" in on the other. You would probably feel some when braking. There's a bunch of guys out there running them like that and don't seem to have a prob. I'd make a ring to fit the inside diameter to the hub if I ran them.

 

So anyway......I just got back from blowing another $50+ and 2+ hours at the scrap yard on this project :( I'll try to post my findings a bit later tonight or first thing in the morning.......but I'll give you this hint.........Jeff....YOU ARE DA MAN!!!! :)

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I'll try to make this quick :)

 

The Altima has a bigger disc setup that I almost got....but then I found the G20. The Altima's setup won't fit behind the stock 14's. It barely fit an aftermarket 14" rim and was not even close on the spare tire rim. The G20 stuff was a win all the way around! :)

 

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It fit in the spare just fine

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The hole in the rotor was a bit smaller than the hub...perfect!! I machined the hub down a bit. Tried to keep the tolerances tight enough to make it hub centric. There's was about .004" of play. I think I can get the next one a bit closer.

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If I clearance the plate just a bit, it will work....I'll make new plates so that the mounting holes are correct.

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Jeff....YOU ARE DA MAN!!!! :)

 

HAHA :D

 

Your the man!!

 

 

It was just an idea, I'm full of them :D They only work about 5% of the time but if it doesn't work I know I'm that much closer to figuring out the right answer.

 

I can't wait to see how these turn out, so far they look great! I hope your making extra sets some day I would like to get a 411 goon :D

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Way cool!

 

Thanks :)

 

Nice work - and you don't even have a 410/411?

 

Nope....don't have one....it's not even on my list of datsuns I want.

 

HAHA :D

 

Your the man!!

 

 

It was just an idea, I'm full of them :D They only work about 5% of the time but if it doesn't work I know I'm that much closer to figuring out the right answer.

 

I can't wait to see how these turn out, so far they look great! I hope your making extra sets some day I would like to get a 411 goon :D

 

I'm full of somethin'!!

Part of the reason I post all the pics and details is in the hopes that someone will pop on with a better idea. I could make the 280zx stuff work with a good bit of machine work.....but this will be a ton easier. I've got hundreds tied up in the truck disc kits right now and haven't even got them to the point I can sell them to recoupe the $'s. With these, Freaky will probably buy the prototype set, then.....maybe I'll start taking deposits on orders to see how many sets to have cut(laser cut brackets)...that way, I don't have to lay out all the money up front. At least with the truck stuff....I have a use for some of it :) Anyway....hopefully, I can figure out the bracket in a few days.

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Thanks :)

 

 

 

Nope....don't have one....it's not even on my list of datsuns I want.

 

 

 

I'm full of somethin'!!

Part of the reason I post all the pics and details is in the hopes that someone will pop on with a better idea. I could make the 280zx stuff work with a good bit of machine work.....but this will be a ton easier. I've got hundreds tied up in the truck disc kits right now and haven't even got them to the point I can sell them to recoupe the $'s. With these, Freaky will probably buy the prototype set, then.....maybe I'll start taking deposits on orders to see how many sets to have cut(laser cut brackets)...that way, I don't have to lay out all the money up front. At least with the truck stuff....I have a use for some of it :) Anyway....hopefully, I can figure out the bracket in a few days.

 

 

 

 

ooouch that hurt the part about not being on your list lol

you know iam down for 1 just let me know when you got it ready and thank you for making the set up. I hope we can sell a ton of them for you

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